Interview with Vivian Giang: Six Common Negotiation Mistakes

Interview with Vivian Giang: Six Common Negotiation Mistakes

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If you're a pragmatic negotiation geek like me, or if you want to improve your negotiation skills so that you can thrive, you won't want to miss this interview with Vivian Giang. 

Vivian is a business writer covering how the changing workplace has impacted the way we work and live, in areas related to automation, robotics, team dynamics, executive leadership, and management. She asks, "How do you navigate these waters while also creating credibility and relevance?" She writes about these topics for business publications, like Fast Company, Fortune, Quartz, Dealbreaker, and Marie Claire.

In this value-packed conversation, Vivian and I addressed each of the six common negotiation mistakes as highlighted in this Fast Company article: www.fastcompany.com/90225908/all-the-things-youre-doing-wrong-in-negotiations 

We discussed: 
- Why it's important to start with your why before asking for the what
- The impact of anchoring effect on the bargaining range
- How making assumptions creates negotiation pitfalls 
- Why you may not want to accept the first offer 
- How to differentiate between short-term and long-term wins
- How negotiators can prepare strategically to avoid these mistakes 

You can find Vivian on Twitter at @vivian_giang.
You can learn more about my negotiation coaching and training services here www.jamieleecoach.com



Full Episode Transcript

Hello! Welcome to Episode 40 of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I’m your host and coach, Jamie Lee.

I believe that negotiation skills are leadership skills and that through negotiation we can collaborate, unlock more value, and contribute in a bigger way.

And so, when we negotiate effectively, we can lead, we can influence, and we can thrive.

And if you’d like to learn more about who I am, what I do, and how you can work with me, come check out jamieleecoach.com.

I am launching a small group mastermind at the end of this year and into early 2019 to help you set some powerful intentions, goals, and build the negotiation skills to make those goals come true.

And thank you to those of you who have rated my podcast on iTunes. I want to say every single one of those ratings counts and they mean a lot to me.

Today, I have a must-listen episode. I consider myself a pragmatic negotiation geek. I love studying, I love reading about negotiation and thinking about how I can apply it to my life and how I can help my clients negotiate so that they can thrive.

And I read this wonderful article on Fast Company. It’s titled All the Things You’re Doing Wrong in Negotiations and each of the six points that the author brought up resonated with me and it’s something that I teach whenever I talk about and hold negotiation workshops for working women.

And so I reached out to the author, Vivian Giang, and she graciously agreed to come onto the podcast and expound, tell us a little bit more about each of these six common mistakes and how we can avoid them.

Vivian Giang is a business writer and journalist covering how the changing workplace has impacted the way we work and live. And she covers areas related to automation, robotics, team dynamics, executive leadership, and management. She asks the question: How do you navigate these waters while also creating credibility and relevance?

That’s a really good question.

She writes about these topics for business publications like Fast Company, Fortune, Quartz, Dealbreaker, and Marie Claire and I think you would really find a lot of value in this conversation. What I took away is that a lot of the common mistakes that we make are in our minds, in our assumptions. So, without further ado, please enjoy this podcast interview with Vivian Giang.

Jamie: Hello, Vivian?

Vivian: Hi, Jamie. Can you hear me?

Jamie: I can hear you now. How are you?

Vivian: I’m doing well, how are you?

Jamie: Third time’s the charm.

Vivian: Yes, that’s what they say.

Jamie: Yeah. Well, thanks so much for joining the podcast.

Vivian: Thanks so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

Jamie: I’m really excited for this conversation.

Vivian: Yeah, me too.

Jamie: And this is a question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast: Would you tell me about a negotiation in your life or career that had the biggest impact on you? And I want to preface that by saying I define negotiation simply as a conversation, not a confrontation, where you’re trying to reach agreement where everyone has the right to say no. So, it doesn’t matter what the outcome was as long as everyone had the right to say no and there was intention to reach an agreement, I would say that’s a negotiation. So, what do you think?

Vivian: Yes, so negotiations…I’ve been thinking about negotiations before I even knew that what I was thinking about was negotiations, I think. I graduated during the economic recession and I was trying to navigate the job market, trying to do something that I love, journalism - already a very low-paying profession. So, trying to convince someone to hire me at the time and pay me a living wage, that was something that I thought about in my first job, I believe. I just didn’t know that it was called negotiations at the time.

But I think, as dubious as this sounds, the negotiation that has impacted my life the most is probably the one that I have with myself. I think that we try to think about what the other party wants from a negotiation so often but we often forget to do that with ourselves because we think we know what we want and I have woken up unhappy before by the fence because I assumed that I knew what I wanted, I assumed I knew myself and what I valued but that’s not always the case.

So, one thing that I do - and I’ll give you an example - that is something that I learned from a professor of management at Stern at New York University, Batia Wiesenfeld, she told me this and it really stuck with me. It’s that you should always search for the why and ask yourself why you’re doing something and it allows you to see information from various different angles. It allows you to readily adjust when you need to. So, asking yourself when you make a decision, when you make a choice, why am I doing this? Which helps bring you closer to your goal.

So, let’s say you are teaching a workshop, right? If you asked yourself, “Why am I teaching this workshop?” and the answer is “To get paid,” then you ask yourself, “Why do I want higher pay?” And if the answer is so that you can have a better life, then you ask yourself a third time, “Why do I want a better life?” and if the answer here is “To be happy,” then maybe teaching that workshop isn’t going to lead you to happiness, maybe there’s something else that leads you to happiness.

So, I try to think about that often in the choices that I make and try to be thoughtful about the decisions that bring me the most value in my life and who else it affects - my decisions - who else it affects other than me.

Jamie: Beautiful and I’d also say that that’s an example of self-coaching because, as a coach myself, I ask my clients why all the time and, as a negotiator, not only do you ask that question to yourself, why and why and why, right? You asked it three times in a row. I think it is beneficial to ask of your negotiation counterpart. You might want to use different words because not everyone likes to be asked why. Ultimately, I think what your professor and what you’re trying to say is get clear on the ultimate interest, the why behind the what.

Vivian: Yes because, if you think about it, we go through life whenever we meet our loved ones, our friends, our colleagues, we always ask them about their lives and why they did certain things, right? Like, we push them to think about their actions and how it impacts their lives so that they can be better because we care about them. But we often don’t do that with ourselves because, like I mentioned earlier, we think that we know ourselves but we all change and sometimes we assume we know what we want and what we value but oftentimes we don’t.

Jamie: Yeah, that’s a really good point. Here’s another thing I learned from coaching, is that we have different aspects in ourselves, right? We have the sort of animal brain or I like to call it the Itty Bitty Shouldy Committee that’s pushing you to stay safe and small, not to take any sort of risk. Anything that is a change can be a threat to its identity. And then there’s the so-called higher self where that enables us to have a vision and take action and be courageous and show up, regardless of what that Itty Bitty Shouldy Committee says. So, yeah, that’s a great example. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I just want to reiterate, I asked you to come on the podcast, I’d love for you to share your insights from this wonderful article that you wrote for Fast Company. It’s called All the Things You’re Doing Wrong in Negotiations.

Vivian: Yes.

Jamie: Yeah, and that’s catchy and it definitely caught my attention because I think a lot of us worry that we’ve done something wrong. In any case, the article hits on so many of the key points that I teach in my workshops and so I’d love for you to take us point by point and share what did you really take away from capturing the six key things that people often do incorrectly. So, the first thing in your article is: Not making the first offer when it’s beneficial to do so.

Vivian: Yes, so the common mistakes in this article is from a course that I took. It’s a two-day negotiation course at MIT taught by Jared Curhan which is amazing and the knowledge that I gained from the class just completely blew my mind, so I figured I needed to share. But, yes, the first point is not making the first offer when it’s beneficial to do so.

I think we’ve all been at this place, right? Where we enter the negotiation room and I’m sure a lot of us have heard the piece of advice not to make the first offer, right? It puts you in a vulnerable position. You need to hear what the other person is coming from, where their head is at and, really, giving the first offer is providing information that you’re offering them information but you haven’t received any information in return so, ultimately, that’s giving someone else the leg up, right? However, there’s research that tells us, there’s actually numerous research that tells us that providing the first offer can actually greatly influence the rest of the negotiation so it’s a principle called the anchoring principle.

Jamie: Yep!

Vivian: And it shows that there’s a strong correlation between the first offer, what the other party counteroffers, and also the final results. And in this class, Jared Curhan mentioned that you should only make the first offer if you have a lot of market information, you have a lot of market research, you’ve done the preparation, so introducing that information makes a lot of sense, right? Otherwise, it’s really unwise to do so.

There’s a particular study that he had mentioned in the course from the University of Arizona that tested this anchoring principle on real estate agents who are trained to know property values and also trained not to be influenced by this anchoring principle but the research shows that every single one of them were impacted and this listed price in this study had an effect on all of their final decisions.

So we see that the anchoring principle is very powerful and you can definitely use it to your advantage and you can even do so without tying it to your offer. For instance, if you’re trying to sell something, you can bring up that number without...So, if you’re trying to sell a home, you can differentiate the anchor from the offer by saying, “Hey, there’s another home that I saw with a similar value,” without actually saying that, you know, that’s the offer on your home.

Jamie: So, for example, you could say, “Hey, you know, I know that a home like this will sell for $10 million.”

Vivian: Yes, exactly.

Jamie: “However, you get to buy it for $750,000. It’s a great deal!”

Vivian: Right, right. Or you can just, you know, let the other person infer what they want to infer after you’ve introduced that number. You can do this in a job negotiation by being similar salaries to the position that you’re interviewing for or just about anything. So, it’s introducing and using that anchoring principle but not actually tying into your offer, not saying that it’s your offer.

Jamie: Absolutely. So, you could say...I actually had a client who was responsible for about $13 million in digital sales for her company and so she prefaced her ask by saying, “I brought in $13 million in revenue and in comparison, my salary is less than 1% of that and all I’m asking is to be compensated according to the value I’m bringing.” And that was a very powerful anchoring effect that she had created by mentioning the amount of money that she had brought in for the company.

Vivian: Right, right. Yes. That’s smart.

Jamie: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. This is something that is so often overlooked because I think people kind of worry that if they anchor, they’ll encounter pushback and so the strategy that I advise is yes, in fact, prepare for the pushback. Know what you’re gonna say when the say, “Oh, it’s too much.”

So, tell us about point number two. The second mistake people make is: Focusing too much on ideal outcomes. What does that mean?

Vivian: Yeah, so, this actually goes back to the anchoring principle that we just mentioned. Since 90% of negotiations is in the planning, so, if you’re doing a good job of planning, of doing your research, of coming up with everything that you need to come up with to prepare you for this negotiation, oftentimes you’ll have specific anchors in your own brain before you walk in there. So, one of those numbers could be a walkaway point or what’s called the reservation value or number and the other one is what’s called your BATNO or your best alternative to negotiate offer. So, basically, your second choice, right? Your runner up.

But because we have those values so implemented into our brains, sometimes they end up affecting our negotiations because we’re so focused on them we can’t see outside of them. We have no peripheral vision anymore and often we end up rejecting even more profitable offers that could come in the process because we’re so deeply ingrained, we’re committed to these numbers. So, the second point is just to say don’t focus too much on what you consider your ideal outcome because you never know what the other person’s gonna bring to the table.

Jamie: Yeah. I guess, put another way, it’s don’t fixate on the dollar values.

Vivian: Right, right. Mm-hmm.

Jamie: The way a deal can become more profitable is that you expand the scope of agreement to include non-monetary items, things that really satisfy the deeper whys that you addressed at the top of this interview.

Vivian: Exactly. That’s exactly what I was gonna say, Jamie, actually, is it goes back to the why, right?

Jamie: Yeah.

Vivian: Like, if you have these numbers in your head, or they might not be number, they might be something else. Whatever value it is, if you have them there then why do you have them there? And tracing that back and making sure that you are getting the most value as well as giving the other person value, too [inaudible] at the bargaining table.

Jamie: Yeah. So, money is important. Absolutely. Money is awesome and at the same time we have to be clear on what this money means for us and what we want to accomplish with the money so that we don’t just fixate on this dollar value. This is a great point, thank you so much.

Number three is: Accepting the other party’s first offer too quickly. I’ve seen a lot of my clients make this mistake, so tell us more.

Vivian: Yes. As frustrating as this sounds, when someone else accepts your offer too quickly, and when you accept someone else’s offer too quickly, that will decrease the satisfaction. So…

Jamie: That’s counterintuitive, isn’t it?

Vivian: Yes, definitely. I think that happens because negotiation is not something that comes natural to a lot of us. Once we think that we’re getting a good deal or getting something that we want, we immediately agree because we want it to end, right? But research actually tells us that if we accept too quickly, it does not make the other party feel great about what just happened and research also tells us that how we feel, which is a subjective value, actually is worth much more than the objective or economic value that we get from the negotiation.

Jamie: That is so fascinating to me and I know that Professor Curhan also said the four most important factors in a negotiation is how people feel about themselves, about their counterpart, about the process, about the outcome. So, that’s really fascinating and I’ve heard that there needs to be about one or two...going back and forth in a negotiation in order for people to feel like, okay, this is probably the best deal.

Vivian: Yes. It almost feels kind of like a game, right? But, you know, it’s just how you feel that you fared after you walk away from something is going to make a more lasting impression and research also tells us that it actually keeps someone more satisfied if they’re entering a new job, a new position, that economic value is not going to be something that really ties them, right? It’s going to be how they feel. How they feel they fared, how they feel that they are getting the most value for themselves. That’s the most important part, that’s the satisfaction that’s gonna last.

Jamie: I just saw somebody ask this question this morning: I already got an offer. It’s already at the high end of the market range. It’s already more than I was making before. Should I just accept it or should I ask for more? And the advice from career experts is to yeah, ask for more, because it signals to the hiring people that this person is very confident and that...the hiring people would also have the satisfaction that, oh, we really did the utmost we could to get this best talent. And for the talent, it’s also satisfying to know that she did the best that she could and got the most value.

Vivian: Exactly. Because at the end of the day, we all want to feel appreciated and respected when we walk away from that interaction.

Jamie: Yeah and I worked briefly in HR for these little tech startups in New York and people would intentionally create wiggle room because they anticipated candidates to ask for more.

Vivian: Right. Mm-hmm.

Jamie: Right, so this is a really great point that you’re making. I absolutely love it. So, number four is: Using the same tactics in both short-term and long-term negotiations. This is really interesting. Tell us more about that.

Vivian: Right. So, this idea comes from when we’re thinking about how we’re dealing with something in the short term and the long term, there are two different tactics to that, right? And so often we leave that at the door when we’re going into a negotiation room because we think that we should just follow all the same rules but in reality, rational behavior in the short term is not so rational in the long term. This goes back to the prisoner’s dilemma which is a game theory that says it doesn’t make sense for people to act against their self-interest, right? So, the faster they act in their self-interest then the better off they’ll be and whoever acts first has the greatest advantage, right?

Jamie: In the short-term.

Vivian: In the short term, yes. But that doesn’t always work in the long term. So, for instance, if in the short term your best interest is always to choose Option A and it always hurts your opponent to choose Option A, that’s the game theory, right? That’s the Prisoner's’ Dilemma. That might work in the short term, but if in the long term your strategy is to prevent your opponent from choosing Option A because if you choose Option A it hurts them, if they choose Option A, it hurts you. So, if your strategy is to prevent them from choosing Option A, then maybe the best way to encourage that behavior is not to choose Option A for yourself so you might want to choose another option to prevent them from choosing something that will hurt you if that makes sense.

Jamie: In the long term or in the short term?

Vivian: In the long term.

Jamie: In the long term. So, in the long term, even though you’re acting not in your best self-interest, for the long-term picture it actually makes more sense, even if you don’t choose Option A, you’re going to gain more value over the long term. Is that what you’re saying?

Vivian: Yes. Kind of think about it like, I hate this word, but winning, right? In the short term, winning means something different than winning in the long term.

Jamie: Oh, right.

Vivian: So, winning in the long term could mean that you’re all faring well off  compared to everyone else, right? So that’s not you winning by yourself, right? You need people around you to help you do that. So, maybe an option is more beneficial for you in the short term but in the long term, that same option isn’t going to be beneficial for you because you’re just burning everyone else along the way.

Jamie: I think for...again, this is a really beautiful example of people who want to grow their careers in a conscious way and there is the conflict in the short term of oh, I need to make money! I need to make a lot of money! I need to pay off my student loans! And in the long term you also want to be creating a body of work, a reputation, a really strong and healthy network and in the long term you may actually want to, for the benefit of the long-term growth, you may want to take a pay cut.

Vivian: Right, right. Or you want to be creating value, right?

Jamie: Right. You want to be focused on creating value instead of gaining value for yourself immediately. So, yeah, I think that’s the dilemma that a lot of people would experience in their lives. I mean, I have, too. I once took an unpaid internship after leaving a hedge fund because I wanted, in the long term, to make a career pivot out of finance and into entrepreneurship and even though I wasn’t gonna be paid, but in the long term I gained a lot of value because I made some really valuable connections in this new industry.

Vivian: Exactly, yes. What’s the saying? If you want to go fast you go alone, if you want to go far, you go with others, right?

Jamie: Mm-hmm.

Vivian: So, yes, so it’s thinking about how to choose and negotiate and being thoughtful about those tactics depending on the negotiation terms.

Jamie: Right, and where you are in your career as well.

Vivian: Exactly. I mean what you want out of the negotiation, right? If the negotiation is so that both of you leave feeling very respected, high subjective value, then that might mean that you’re using specific tactics that you wouldn’t be using for a one-off type of interaction.

Jamie: Yeah. I’m thinking about the book Give and Take by Adam Grant and he talks about how very successful people are givers and at the same time, very unsuccessful people can also be givers. So, givers who are very successful, they know how to give in a way that is strategic and also mindful, they’re not always just blindly giving away resources and information and contacts. They’re able to set boundaries around that mindfully, so yeah, I think that’s a really important point for a lot of people as well as me. Thank you. So, number five: Judging others based on their actions. This is a big one! How is this a pitfall?

Vivian: Right. So, this often happens because, and I feel like we’ve all dealt with this situation at one time or another, where we’ve asked someone for something and they say no, right? And, in turn, we come up with a dialogue in our head as to why they said no, right? And so, for instance, if you asked your boss for a raise and she says no, despite the fact that you prepared, despite the fact that you brough tin market research, despite the fact that you’re very persuasive, you’ve been working really hard, you know you deserve this raise. You might automatically think that her action makes her a jerk.

Jamie: Yeah. Yup.

Vivian: And, you know, you can go on with your day and never think about that again. But instead, if you dig into why this person said no or what could have led her to say no, the situation that she might be in that might result in her no, that could actually help you get what you want. So, for instance, if your boss is saying no to you, could it be budget restraints? Could it be your boss answering to her boss? If you are able to identify all the potential parties that are involved in that no, even the ones that weren’t there in the negotiation room, right, then you can get to the yes. So, not always judging others based on their actions that you can see but trying to link it back, farther back, as to how they came to that answer.

Jamie: I love this so much. I think it’s one of the most important things in negotiation because we are so easily clouded by our judgment of other people and don’t always make the best kinds of decisions in a negotiation and the trigger word, no, is involved and that is why in all of my workshops, I have people practice hearing no and doing exactly as you say. Not getting defensive but just getting more curious and asking an open-ended question: Okay, tell me more about that. What’s behind your no? Who else do we need to have involved in this conversation? And from there, you can take that information and reframe and re-ask and you can come up with creative solutions that really satisfy their reasons as well as your why.

Another thing that I love about this is I really appreciate how you pointed out we really shouldn’t judge people based on their actions because we don’t know why they’re behaving that way. We don’t know how they really, really feel and what are they thinking that makes them do that?

Vivian: Right, right. Exactly, Jamie. They say that we judge others based on their actions but we judge ourselves based on our situation. So when you are explaining to a friend or a colleague why you made a specific decision, you can say, “Well, I did that because of this. I took that job because I really needed to pay off that student loan,” or whatever it is. But we don’t think about that when it comes to others. So if we’re able to do that, if we’re able to just push ourselves a little bit to be a little bit more thoughtful, we can actually help people help us. We can help people get to that yes by thinking about all of these other factors that come into play when they are sitting right in front of you.

Jamie: Beautiful. So good. This is so good. So the last point is assuming you know what’s most valuable to the other party.

Vivian: Right.

Jamie: So this is tied to number five where we judge people by their actions and then we also assume we know what’s most important to the other people. Tell us more about that.

Vivian: When I learned this, it just blew my mind, like, my mind just exploded. I feel like I can never explain it well enough but it’s...what happens to all of us when we are coming to a negotiation table with someone, we think that in order to get something it comes at the expense of someone else, right? It’s this win-lose mentality. If I win, you lose.

But thinking about it from a different lens - a win-win - so, you can’t assume you know what’s valuable to the other party. You can only assume, when you assume this, then it actually affects what you’re also giving, so it can affect...you might think that if you accept a lower offer that your boss will be happier, right? Or walk away with a higher subjective value, they don’t like pushing back with you. You think that you’re giving them something but you actually don’t know what’s most valuable to them.

Jamie: That’s true.

Vivian: So assuming that isn’t going to help you get anywhere, really. So, for instance, if you want to...you might assume that, in a job offer negotiation, your boss doesn’t want to give you flexibility, right? Or your boss or the other party doesn’t want to give you a higher salary. It’s only through clear and trustworthy communication can you actually determine what the other party’s preferences really are. So, one way to do that is ask open-ended questions. You mentioned earlier trying to really figure out what the other party values. If you ask a few questions based on their responses, you can determine what the patterns are, right? You can sort of guess what they may value most out of the negotiation but assuming you know actually is sort of a lose-lose type of situation because you have no idea what the other party wants coming into negotiations.

Jamie: This is so good because can we ever really know what is going through someone else’s head? And I think the answer is no.

Vivian: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Jamie: The art of communication, it’s almost like we’re trying to do magic right? We have something that we want to say inside of us. We say it. People hear it. But people don’t always hear everything we say. Often they mishear what we say.

Vivian: Well, yes!

Jamie: And then they interpret that to mean something and what they interpret that to be can be something so different from what you originally intended. Yeah, so for you to assume that you know what’s going through other people’s head is such a fundamental mistake, I think, that we often make, pretty much on a constant basis, on default. I think about my most common miscommunication defaults that I have with my partner, right? And I always think I know what’s going through his head it’s like, “Does he mean to make me feel bad?” Of course, he never intends to make me feel bad and so this is such a good one.

Vivian: Yes and they say that if ten different people walk away from the same conversation, they all have different interpretations as to what was communicated, what was the message of the conversation takeaway, right?

Jamie: Yeah. Ten different interpretations.

Vivian: Exactly, right? So, when we assume that someone wants something before we even get there, we assume that we know what’s most valuable to them, that actually affects the way that we approach the negotiation with them, right? We go, we bee-line in, we think that we know exactly what’s going to be most valuable to them, what’s going to be most valuable to us and this actually hurts in the end. Especially if it’s negotiating for more a long-term relationship or something that’s a little bit more complex than choosing Option A, B, or C.

Jamie: Yeah. This is so good. The way I help my clients to get clear is that often we make assumptions, we don’t even realize we’re making assumptions because we feel that what we think is true.

Vivian: Mm-hmm.

Jamie: But the facts of the situation are usually very simple and facts are something that everyone will agree to be true. It can be proven in the court of law. But our thoughts, our opinions, our judgments, our assumptions are what is most often in our heads and cloud our judgment and how we perceive the situation. So, usually I have my clients just write down their thoughts on paper and then separate the facts and something really funny happens. It’s like they have a long list of thoughts. Oh, this person thinks I’m this. I am not good enough. Or It’s gonna all not go well, blah blah blah. You know, all the thoughts that we have so often and then we just write down the facts and the facts are like, there was a conversation. This person said x. I said y.

Vivian: Exactly, Jamie. Yeah, it happens so often. It really does and I think if we just think about negotiations as more of having both parties walk away feeling like they got the most value out of the conversation, out of the negotiation, I think that’s really important. Especially today, when it seems like we’re gridlocked over everything, right? Whether that’s business or social, political, whatever. I think it’s really important to think about how we approach these conversations and to ask open-ended questions so that we can have a better idea of how we can come out of it, both of us coming out of it feeling like we’re appreciated and valued and respected.

Jamie: I am so appreciative of this article. I’m appreciative of the research, the length you went to to gather this valuable information and how you made it succinct, relatable, useful to the audience. So thank you so much, Vivian. Where can people go to learn more about what you do?

Vivian: People can go...and thanks so much for saying that, I’m really happy that the article resonated with you. I had a lot of fun putting it together. So, People can learn more about me by either following me on Twitter. I’m @vivian_giang. Or they can read my stuff on Fast Company.

Jamie: Excellent! Well, thanks again, Vivian, for your valuable time and for this great article. I will be sharing it in the podcast notes as well as with my newsletter audience. Have a wonderful day!

Vivian: You too. Thanks so much for having me Jamie.

Jamie: Bye bye!

Vivian: Bye bye!

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