On Money, Family, and Passion: Eric Kohner Coaches Jamie Lee Using the Five Knowledge Centers

According to Ivy Business Journal, “Executives and HR managers know that coaching is the most potent tool for creating lasting personal change.” 

I think coaching is something everyone should get to test drive and experience first hand to really understand the impact of it. 

But if you can't hire a coach (or find a coach-in-training who will coach you for free) the second best thing might be for you to sit in on a coaching session.

That’s why earlier this week, I invited leadership coach Eric Kohner, who trained me to coach at the Coaches Training Institute to coach me on my own money beliefs using his leadership framework called the Five Knowledge Centers. 

The Five Knowledge Centers reflect:

1. Head - reason 

2. Heart - love

3. Gut - intuition and vision 

4. Groin - passion and drive

5. Hands - action  

Eric Kohner is an internationally recognized executive coach and keynote speaker. He founded EKCosystem, a global corporate training company dedicated to bringing HUMAN BEING into business, because “in today’s highly competitive world, the new hard skills are the heart skills.” 

Learn more about Eric's work here: www.ekcosystem.com 

Or reach him directly via email here: eric.kohner@icloud.com

You can reach me directly via email too: jamie@jamieleecoach.com 

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Full Episode Transcript

Hello! Welcome to Episode 59 of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I’m your coach and host, Jamie Lee.

How are you?

I say it every episode and that’s because I really believe it: I believe we’re all born to thrive. Not just survive but thrive. And as a leadership and negotiation coach, I believe that asking for what we want or negotiating or engaging in collaborative value-creating conversations is the conscious practice of leadership that will enable you to thrive and be fulfilled.

The leadership I’m talking about and that I coach people on is not about how many people you manage or what title you have but rather how you consciously choose to grow yourself so you can be of greater value and be of greater service to the world.

And that’s why I love coaching because that is the mission of coaching, to enable people to become of greater value and to become of greater service to the world. I love coaching and I love being coached by other coaches and this is a special episode where you will hear me get coached by a master leadership coach, Eric Kohner, who trained me to become a coach with the Coaches Institute a couple of years ago.

But you know what? I want to be really honest because before I started training as a coach, before I experienced coaching for myself first-hand, I didn’t really get what coaching was about. I thought coaching was a hoax or, worse yet, a privileged way for somebody who’s got money to get somebody to listen to them and to get a paid friend or a pretend therapist.

I didn’t get it.

Once I experienced coaching for myself, that’s when the scales fell from my eyes and Eric really helped me do that and he was the first person I met who called himself a leadership coach and I was like Oh! I can do that too!

He showed me a powerful example of what is possible.

And since then, my life has never been the same. Coaching has changed how I think, how I feel, and how I show up to my life and career. Coaching has changed my mindset and because I changed my mindset, my results changed and so my life changed.

Coaching has enabled me to live the life of my dreams, to negotiate, to lead, and to thrive.

But, you know, I don’t want you to take my word for it. I think coaching really is a gift that everyone should experience first-hand but if you can’t afford it or if you don’t know any coaches who are in training who might be able to coach you for free, the second-best thing is for you to sit in on a coaching call.

And that’s why, earlier this week, I invited leadership coach Eric Kohner to coach me.

And I asked him to coach me on my money beliefs and if you’ve been listening to my podcast, you know that my mission is to help ambitious people like you become bolder, braver, and better paid. And unless I work on my money beliefs so that they’re not limiting beliefs, how can I coach other people? How can I be of service to others?

And that’s the reason why I am very open, transparent, and vulnerable in this episode. You’ll hear about what I think and believe, some of my own limiting beliefs, how I feel about them, and you’ll find out how Eric uses his five knowledge centers, his own leadership framework, to help me rise above it, to overcome, and to shift my mindset around it.

So, Eric was on this podcast last year. You might want to check out Episode 32 where we did a really cool discussion about #MeToo and what it means to be a male ally in these times. Eric is also an internationally recognized executive coach and keynote speaker and coach trainer. He founded EKCOsystem, a global corporate training company dedicated to bringing HUMAN BEING into business because in quotes, “in today’s highly competitive world, the new hard skills are the heart skills.”

You can learn more about Eric’s work on www.ekcosystem.com or you can reach him directly via email at eric.kohner@icloud.com. And if you have any feedback for me, feel free to email me directly: jamie@jamieleecoach.com

So I hope you enjoy this special episode where you get to experience me getting coached by Eric. Without further ado, here it is:

Jamie: I am down for some coaching. Yeah!

Eric: What do you want to get coached on?

Jamie: You know, one of the things that I coach people on is money because my goal is to help ambitious people become bolder, braver, and better paid. And that’s either through mindset shifting, going for their dreams, negotiating for more money and I would loved to be coached by you on my own money beliefs.

I’ll be more specific. I want to create abundance and wealth for myself and I also want to do it for my family but there’s like this little part of me that’s still kind of...I don’t know how to describe it, it’s like...you know, when I think about abundance and think about being able to make big donations like I feel like a lot of uplift but when I think about the obligation that I have to give back to my family, I feel like it’s like a speedbump. It’s like I feel a little resentful, you know?

For a bit of background, I am from an immigrant family and as a lot of immigrant families do, we give back to our parents because...yeah, I know it’s not only the immigrant families, but…

Eric: No, no. Just to reveal a little bit, my wife is from the Philippines so I was actually relating to you.

Jamie: Got it. Yeah.

Eric: That that is part of the culture in the Philippines, so that’s where I was coming from.

Jamie: Great. Yeah, I’m Korean but yeah, I think it’s very similar and my family, they tell me there is an expectation that I will share my wealth and I want to be able to come from real abundance and real generosity, you know what I mean? I don’t want to come from this place of obligation and guilt.

Eric: Right, got it.

Jamie: So that’s where I’m at.

Eric: First of all, to me, it’s inspiring that you’re getting so vulnerable in a webinar. I know personally and from studies that speaking about money is probably one of the most vulnerable topics to talk about. So I just want to acknowledge the courage that it’s taking for you to actually even talk about it in public.

Jamie: Thank you. My intention is to walk the talk I give and I think it’s important to talk about money. I think it’s really important to change what we think and believe and feel about money. Yeah.

Eric: Right.

Jamie: So it’s important to me.

Eric: So, I’m actually hearing, there’s already a few knowledge centers that you’re already tapping into. And, by the way, my dog just broke into the office so she’s very interested in this also, so I just want to include her. If she makes any noise, I apologize in advance. It seems like you’re getting a bit weighed down in your head about this.

Jamie: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Eric: Tell me about what’s happening in your head, like the rational, reasonable part.

Jamie: Yeah, the rational, reasonable part is like, it starts calculating. It starts, you know, expenses and doing the P&L analysis. Like how much money am I gonna make? Am I gonna have enough? And can I afford this? How much are they gonna ask for?

Eric: Yeah, exactly and how is this gonna impact my relationship with them and all that kind of stuff.

Jamie: Yeah. What are they gonna say? How are they gonna judge me? My mom’s gonna say I’m being cheap.

Eric: Yeah, being stingy, got it. And so that, it almost feels like there’s a weight in your head about that.

Jamie: Mmmm.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Let’s go down to your heart.

Jamie: Mm-hmm.

Eric: I actually kind of want to...well, go to your heart first before I say what I wanna do. Go to your heart. What is your heart telling you about the relationship of money and family?

Jamie: Wow. You know, I’m kind of surprised...I feel a bit of sadness, like…

Eric: Okay.

Jamie: Yeah, there’s like a bit of...in my heart, in my chest I feel a bit of heaviness. Yeah.

Eric: So just be with that sadness for a second.

Jamie: Mm-hmm.

Eric: Just allow that sadness to be there. Because it’s giving you some information.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: What’s there now?

Jamie: Uhh...wow. I feel emotional thinking about the sacrifice...the sacrifice that my parents made coming to America, working so hard. I thought about the sacrifice my grandmothers made, living through some really difficult times like the Korean War and poverty. And I think the sadness comes from feeling that struggle and the lack that they had to go through for me to experience so much abundance and so there’s sadness, there’s like a ton of emotion and a lot of gratitude.

Eric: Gratitude. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that and there’s something pure there. It’s not attached to any solutions or what are you gonna do but that in itself has a really powerful effect on you. Yeah. So are you ready to actually sink down into your gut for a second?

Jamie: Okay.

Eric: Unless you want to stay there because sometimes clients, you know, we hit on something and to get all five knowledge centers, I really want this to work for you.

Jamie: [laughs] When you said, “Let’s go to your gut,” the first thing that came to my head was “Oh, I’m hungry!”

Eric: Your gut tells you that too!

Jamie: My gut tells me I’m gonna have lunch after this webinar.

Eric: And the gut is kind of the place where intuition and vision also resides. Like what is your gut telling you about abundance and family?

Jamie: You know, my gut feels this like so strongly. I feel this..I feel so certain that it is possible that I can create abundance in my life, that I can give away abundance and...I feel really strongly in my gut that what I dream for my clients, for myself, for us to actually become bolder, braver and a heck of a lot better paid, I really do believe it’s possible and I feel it like very strongly in my gut.

Eric: And, only because you also brought up family, what is your gut telling you about abundance and giving back to your family?

Jamie: Wow. The words that just popped into my head surprised me. The words that popped into my head were “It’s not too late. It’s never too late.”

Eric: Never too late.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: Never too late for what?

Jamie: It’s never too late to create abundance, to give abundance. I guess my head was thinking about oh, you know, they already struggled so much and yeah…

Eric: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jamie: And my gut said it’s not too late. It’s never too late.

Eric: Never too late to come from abundance.

Jamie: Yeah. It’s never too late.

Eric: Right. Fantastic. So I see this big smile on your face.

Jamie: Yeah. I’m really surprised by what came to the surface.

Eric: Mmm, cool. You know, it’s almost like the smile on your face, it’s almost like an ageless smile. Like you could be five or you could be sixty five and I don’t know what that means but that’s what’s coming up over here. Yeah.

Jamie: That’s really funny. My life partner sometimes makes fun of me and he tells me I’m sixty-five years old. [laughs]

Eric: [Laughing] Well, being sixty-six, it ain’t that bad, okay?

Jamie: Nice.

Eric: Yeah. So, let’s now...and I’m gonna actually ask you to stand up, okay?

Jamie: Alright.

Eric: Because we’re gonna be now going to the groin area and the thing that I like to get my clients really in touch with that part of their body is….because it really is about being grounded and in touch with what are you passionate about?

Jamie: What am I passionate about?

Eric: What are you passionate about? What is it that you wanna create? Yeah.

Jamie: I’m really passionate about...I’m really passionate about helping people understand their own minds.

Eric: Mmm.

Jamie: Yeah. And I’m really passionate about helping people see their own potential and that nothing is too good to be true. That with the power of their minds that they really can accomplish and create anything that they desire. And I’m really passionate about believing that for myself as well.

Eric: Cool. Cool. And what about...I’m taking a little bit of a risk here, okay?

Jamie: It’s okay! Eric, can I just give a technical note? We would love to see your face. Is it possible for you to lift up your camera angle so we can see you?

Eric: That’s as far as it goes, so I’ll sit down.

Jamie: Okay.

Eric: Okay. So, can you see me now?

Jamie: I can see you really well.

Eric: Okay, great. So, what...and I wanna get back to what you were saying. You were talking about having people see what’s possible, having people really step into their greatness, all of that. And how about your family?

Jamie: Hmm.

Eric: What about seeing them from that perspective? What pops up when I ask that?

Jamie: Oh, wow. Wow. Hmmm. That’s a tricky one. Yeah.

Eric: Yeah, like I said. I knew that was a bit edgy, so…

Jamie: Yeah because my mind, my head immediately pops up and it says things like, oh, they don’t get what you’re doing, you know?

Eric: Right. Exactly.

Jamie: Why didn’t you become a lawyer? Why aren’t you climbing the corporate ladder?

Eric: Why aren’t you doing a nice corporate job? Right.

Jamie: Yeah. Why are you doing this coaching stuff? We don’t get it but as long as you make money, we get it, you know?

Eric: They don’t have to get it. This is not about them getting it. It’s about you getting it. About them. It’s about you seeing them from a place of possibility. So that’s kind of where I’m taking you. And I also notice that when I asked that question, you automatically went to your head.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah.

Jamie: And all the reasons why they wouldn’t get it, they wouldn’t accept it, they wouldn’t approve of it.

Eric: Exactly. And they don’t have to! Because it’s not about them. This is about you.

Jamie: Yeah. So, wow. To see them from a place of possibility. You know, I went to...my mind went to my nephew and it’s really exciting to think that my nephew is going to have a life that is just so completely different from my parents’, from mine…

Eric: Right. So that’s what’s possible. Perhaps the next generation, then.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And I’m gonna keep challenging you. I’m gonna challenge...so, your mother.

Jamie: Mm-hmm.

Eric: What is something that is so fantastic about her?

Jamie: What is so fantastic about her is her optimism, her drive, her work ethic, her love. Her love for her grandchild is just...it’s just so beautiful. I mean, she just has this overflowing love for my nephew and it makes me feel warm-hearted to see her be so happy holding this baby. She’s got this tremendous energy that I’ve always looked up to, you know? She’s a workhorse. And I also...what’s so fantastic about her is her belief in me, her belief in her own children, to do amazing thing that she hasn’t but for good reasons because she doesn’t speak English well and all that stuff but yeah, I think of her...I see her smiling, I see her as this incredible source of strength.

Eric: Yeah and if we had more time, we would go to your dad but [inaudible] the time also, but this is actually, what I’m seeing is, this is my intuition here, my gut is telling me the answer to everything here is around your passion.

Jamie: Mmm.

Eric: But before we go to that, there’s one other knowledge center I want to explore just for the sake of everybody getting the model here and that’s the hands.

Jamie: Okay.

Eric: What are your hands telling you about this?

Jamie: What are my hands telling me about this?

Eric: Yeah. About abundance and family?

Jamie: What do my hands tell me about this?

Eric: And you can sit down if you want. I just wanted to, on the passion part have you stand up, yeah.

Jamie: Yeah. Huh. My hands tell me that...I don’t know if it’s my hands saying this or it’s my mind saying this but what I want to believe is that I can build it.

Eric: Yes. Well we talked about the hands are what make things. What is it you want to build?

Jamie: I wanna build a really successful coaching practice. I wanna build a company that employs people and transforms lives. I wanna build something that really helps women double their income and their impact. Funny you say that, asking about the hand because I was thinking how it’s so easy because all I have to do is type into a computer [laughing].

Eric: Yeah, the hands actually...you need your hands. At least still today, we need our hands to work with technology.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: Yes, yeah. So, I’m gonna ask you now to go back to your head.

Jamie: Okay.

Eric: But with that, all the knowledge that you just explored.

Jamie: Mm-hmm.

Eric: And I’m noticing you’ve got this very warm smile on your face right now.

Jamie: Mm-hmm.

Eric: What are you taking away from this, now we’ve been coaching for about twenty minutes? What are you gonna take away from this exploration around abundance and family?

Jamie: I don’t need to worry so much.

Eric: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: Wow.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah.

Jamie: You know I also coach with the Life Coach School by Brooke Castillo and she says worry pretends to be necessary and so that’s what came to my mind, I’m like why am I worried, you know? I think I’m gonna answer my own question. I think I’m worried because I’m feeling impatient. I want it now, I want the millions of dollars to give away like Oprah, like now!

Eric: You wanna give everybody a car.

Jamie: Yeah, yeah. You get a Mercedes! And what’s coming to me now is how I think it was when we went to the gut, my gut says it’s never too late.

Eric: Yeah, it’s never too late. And that seems to be a really powerful...it’s almost like a mantra or something. I don’t know. What do you want to do with that? Because that actually seems to ground you.

Jamie: Mmm. Yeah, that’s really interesting because when I sit down and write down my self-limiting thoughts, the one that comes up over and over again is that I’m running behind.

Eric: Right, right.

Jamie: And so it’s kind of like my gut telling me, “You’re not behind!”

Eric: You’re not falling behind. You’re right on time.

Jamie: There’s no rush.

Eric: There’s time, there’s no rush. Exactly. Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: So I wanna end this by just saying you are so up to this. You are so ready to step into this.

Jamie: Thank you! Thank you.

Eric: And my whole body is actually telling me that.

Jamie: Nice.

Eric: Yeah.

Interview with Eric Kohler: How to Take a Stand #MeToo

Eric Kohner is an ally who taught me how to coach -- which I love not only because it's a grand way to make a living, but also because coaching skills are at the intersection of leadership and negotiation skills. 

Eric is also an internationally recognized executive coach and keynote speaker. He founded eKCosystem, a global corporate training company dedicated to bringing HUMAN BEING into business, because “in today’s highly competitive world, the new hard skills are the heart skills.” 

In this interview, Eric shared personal stories of: 

- How he negotiated a conflict with his employer, from anger and resistance to connection and vulnerability
- How he encountered unconscious bias in the most unlikely of places and gained empathy for the marginalized
- How he took a stand for himself and you can, too, in the era of #MeToo so we can press for progress. 

Learn more about Eric's work here: www.ekcosystem.com 
Or reach him directly via email here: eric.kohner@icloud.com

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Full Episode Transcript

Hello, Hello! Welcome to Episode 32 of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I’m your host and coach, Jamie Lee.

My mission is to help people like you - ambitious people like you - become bolder, braver and better paid.

My guess is that, if you’re like me, you may not fit the bill, you may not fit the description of most people in high positions of power in corporations, law firms, and organizations. They happen to be mostly white men.

And I want to help you break through that glass ceiling and so, today, we’re going to brave that uncomfortable and hot topic: white male privilege.

And we’re also going to talk about bias. We’re going to talk about Me Too. We’re going to talk about the hot-button issues of today and I have very special guest. His name is Eric Kohner.

He is a white dude. But he’s an ally. He’s my ally. He’s someone who has taught me everything, almost everything, all the really, really good and juicy things that I know and that I practice in my coaching.

Eric is an internationally recognized executive coach and keynote speaker. He founded EKCOsystem, which is a global corporate training company dedicated to bringing HUMAN BEING into business because in today’s highly competitive world, the new hard skills are the heart skills. I love that.

EKCOsystem is successfully bringing the heart skills to high-level executives in global organizations such as the US Navy, Capgemini, and ING, just to name a few. So, without further ado, here’s the interview with Eric Kohner.

Eric: Hello?

Jamie: Hi, Eric. How are you?

Eric: I’m good. How are you?

Jamie: I’m doing awesome. So happy to have you on the Born to Thrive podcast!

Eric: Well, I’m excited to be here.

Jamie: Amazing. So, I’m really honored because you were my coach trainer. You taught me how to coach and coaching is really important to me, not only because I do it and I feel like it’s my life calling, but at the same time, what I recognize is that coaching is at the intersection of negotiation and leadership, which is what this is all about.

And so, I’d love to hear from you, what are some of the key learnings in your life around negotiating?

Eric: Great question. You know, interestingly enough, one of my biggest learnings came about when I was working for a coaching company. And one of the things that I was doing with them, they were licensing their IP to me, and it was a very generous agreement and I was bringing this into a corporation, the trainings.

And then overnight they decided that it wasn’t working for them and they basically decided that they were gonna take back their agreement and then centralize it and take all the clients that were licensing material from, take it away from us. And, needless to say, this really upset me. But I was also an employee of that company and so it made it very difficult for me to really take a stand and one by one, each of us kind of folded and allowed this to happen.

And, literally, I know this sounds like a cliche, but literally, I looked in the mirror and I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror, doing that.

And so I decided to take a stand and it took about a year and a half  but it was a very long, drawn out negotiation and ultimately me and the CEO of this company had a huge fight. And, ironically, it was when both of us kind of allowed our emotions to really cut loose, something magical happened. And it was a real lesson for me around allowing yourself to take a stand for yourself.

Something magical happened. Intimacy got created between us and both of us kind of realized in that moment of anger that we needed to kind of, both of us needed to reinvent the conversation. And from there, I mean, it still took some time, but from there, we were able to, I believe, come up with a win-win situation for both of us.

Jamie: This is so fascinating, because so many of us...I mean, I’ll just speak for myself, you know? I’m afraid of conflict. There’s a part of me that does not want to get into an argument with people because I’m afraid that it is going to ruin the relationship and they’ll never work with me again. There’s a lot of my own ego involved in that…

Eric: Right.

Jamie: ...wanting to protect my ego. And so, I’m so fascinated to hear that, for you, having those emotions come to the surface and allowing that conflict, to just have that conflict, confront it, was the pivotal point that made things better not worse.

Eric: Yeah, it was really counterintuitive because, I mean, I really thought, you know, when this was happening in the moment, I thought I saw my career flash through my eyes. And I really want to give this CEO a lot of credit because he was the one that actually, he got very, very angry with me and I said, “Be angry!” Right?

Jamie: What did you say?

Eric: He said, “I’m really, really angry with you right now!” And I just said, it was funny because there was a part of me that went into coach mode and wanted to allow him to, I don’t know, there was this split second where I thought, “Maybe I should coach him right now.” And then I thought, “NO! I’m negotiating, I’m not coaching right now. I have to take a stand for myself!”

And so I just said to him, “Be angry! If you’re angry, fine! I’m angry, too!” And then there was this long silence and he just said, “I’m so frustrated,” and I didn’t respond. I just listened to him and then he said, “You know, maybe there are some things that I got wrong on this.”

Jamie: Wow.

Eric: Yeah, and like I said, I mean, he’s the one that actually got vulnerable with me. And once he, the second he got vulnerable then I was able to then also see his side of things. And we were able to then kind of relook at the whole thing and find a way for both of us to come out of this in a way that worked for both of us.

Jamie: So, my negotiation hat tells me - my hat is talking to me right now - that there were three amazing things that happened. First is that you took a stand and you didn’t fold when the emotions were getting heated. And then second is that you created this space where you allowed for anger to just be. You said you kind of vacillated whether to coach or not, but you’ve taught me that in coaching we all get to be, so you did that!

Eric: In that way, yes, but let’s put it this way: As you learned in coaching, it’s always about holding the other person’s agenda. I had an agenda.

Jamie: Okay, I see. Got it.

Eric: So, in that way, I wasn’t coaching him, but you’re right. I allowed him to have his feelings. I gave him space. And I also gave myself space to have my emotions. And for some reason, as I said before, if somebody would have told me this beforehand, that this was the way that we were gonna break the impasse, I would have told them they’re nuts! But that’s what happened.

Jamie: That’s so beautiful because, like I said, there’s a part of me that is afraid of conflict and that’s because there’s a part of me that does not want to feel negative emotion and what your story illustrates is that allowing us to feel all the feels, even the bad ones, is sometimes exactly what you need to do to get through.

Eric: Right, and I would even push it a little further and say anger isn’t necessarily a negative emotion. It’s just an emotion. And when we give ourselves permission to have all of our emotions and at the same time be responsible with them. So, I’m not talking about being angry and hitting somebody or being angry and manipulating with that anger, but really allowing oneself to have their emotions in a clean way, it’s healthy in negotiations, it’s healthy in relationships. It’s healthy.

Jamie: Yeah, that’s really rich and powerful. Thank you for that. I just want to add one thing which is, you did a third thing that was really amazing, which is you held silence.

Eric: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah, and that became the space in which the CEO was able to introspect and then allow himself to be vulnerable. That changed everything.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, a lot went on in that timeline, so that’s all I can say. And as always, silence doesn’t mean nothing’s going on, when we allow for that silence.

Jamie: Yeah, which is a great coaching skill as well as a negotiation skill. One thing that comes to my mind is that some people might hear your story, some of my audience who are mostly women, and they’ll be like, “Yeah, but that’s because it was a guy and guy conversation,” you know what I mean? Like, “Of course he was able to get there because it’s a man talking to a man.”

I’ve been asked recently to address white male privilege and for women, professional women who tend to be in like the junior or mid-ranks of corporations and organization, how do they get through to men who are at the upper echelons of these organizations? How do we get through to the old white guys?

Eric: So, what’s the question? How do you get through to people like me?

Jamie: So, we’ve addressed the elephant, we’re getting closer to the elephant in the room.

Eric: No, I love that you’re bringing this up. [Inaudible]

Jamie: So I’m wondering if you would share with us, what do you notice, what do you see about women in leadership? And I think you have a great story to share, an instructive story to share. I’d love to hear from your perspective.

Eric: Well, two things are popping up: something that happened in the past, maybe eight years ago, and then also I kind of want to address what’s happening now.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: You know, because now we’re in the Me Too, Time’s Up kind of movement and so I think that my perspective has shifted a lot since eight years ago. But, you know, I was once invited to facilitate a leadership program in a global bank.

Jamie: Hmm. Where?

Eric: It was in Singapore. The bank itself, their headquarters is in the Netherlands, but, like I said, it was global so they had people all over the world. And, if I remember correctly, it was called the Leadership Inclusion Program, and what they meant at that time, inclusion meant specifically including women. You know, that was their main focus.

So, these were some of the top women leaders in the company that were going through this program. And I was delivering like one piece of a much bigger program. So, I flew in. There were about forty women, twenty went in one room with me and my co-facilitator and the other twenty went in another room with two other facilitators. We finished the first day and for whatever reasons - it was all women, my co-facilitator was a woman also, so it was all women - and for whatever reasons there were a few women in the class that I just rubbed the wrong way. I just walked in and I don’t know what I did. To this day, I know when I mess up. In this particular case, I didn’t know what I did.

Jamie: Could it be, Eric, that you were a white dude?

Eric: You know, I don’t know if I was a white dude, but I think what I represented to some of the women were arrogant executives that they had to deal with.

Jamie: Mmm, so they were projecting that onto you.

Eric: Yeah, because I can be very direct, you know. That’s just a part of who I am and that can be perceived as arrogant at times. So, I have to be honest, I don’t know. I don't’t know what I did. But I get this phone call at 1:00 in the morning, that evening, from the lady that was in charge of the program and basically said, “I’ve heard some real negative comments from a few of the women in the group. They don’t like you and we’ve decided…” She said it much nicer. She said, “I don’t want to do this, but I’ve decided I’m gonna replace you.”

Jamie: Ouch!

Eric: Yeah. And I just said, “No.” I kind of…

Jamie: You took a stand again.

Eric: I took a stand again. Yeah, I said, you know, this happens and I said to her, “This isn’t about me. This is about what happens inside organizations. Whenever there’s a problem, people don’t go directly to the person that they have the problem with. They go around. They’ll go to HR or they’ll go their manager. They won’t go directly speak to the person that they have the problem with.”

I said, “You know, if they don’t want me in the class, I’m happy, well, not happy, but I’ll accept it. But they’re gonna have to fire me.” And so, the lady was taken aback but she said, “Okay. We’ll do it that way then.”

And the next morning, I felt like I was walking into the lion’s den and my co-leader was very supportive and she basically said, “You need to stand up for yourself. We’re not gonna walk in here and just allow them to railroad you like this.” So, she did something brilliant, okay? Before we started on all that other stuff, she just talked about how she’s really excited to be in Singapore because once she’s done with this thing, she’s gonna go shoe shopping and she’s gonna just go shopping, right? And somehow, that, she met the group in a way that they could relate to, right? And so the first ten minutes they were talking about clothing, basically. And I was just sitting there waiting for the inevitable.

And finally, I just said it. I said, “Look, I heard from the person that’s in charge last night that there’s some people that have a problem with me. I want to give you the space to say whatever it is that you need to say.” And basically the class just said, “Oh, no, we don’t have a problem with you,” or “We’re past all that,” which kind of, you know, I knew that not to be true, right?

And then finally there was one woman in the group that said, “I know that this is an inclusion program but I just have to tell you, there’s something about you I don’t like.”

Jamie: Hmm. Can I just pause you right there and say that’s the kind of feedback that so many of my negotiation workshop share with me. That’s the kind of feedback they get. Vague. Subjective. You know, there’s no concrete basis for this. They get told by their mostly male, sometimes female supervisors that they just don’t have the chops. There’s just something lacking and they don’t know what it is. They’re too aggressive. They’re too whatever, too shy or too aggressive.

Eric: Yeah, I get it.

Jamie: You’re getting a taste of what they get.

Eric: Exactly. And that was the upshot of that whole program because after that, I mean, I said to the lady, “Thank you very much, I really appreciate you telling me this and I’m facilitating this workshop and part of my job is actually to make you uncomfortable. Because leadership is about stretching you. And I’ll do the best I can. Let’s talk during the break if there’s something I can do to make it easier for you.”

And then we moved on and the rest of the workshop was magical. The rest of the workshop was a huge success, and one of the women, in the feedback said, “You know, we really got a lot out of the workshop, actually, by it not working at the beginning because it allowed us to go through this journey. Like, there was a struggle at the beginning but the end result gave us a lot of learning.”

So, yeah, that’s number one and when we finished the workshop, exactly what you’re talking about, Jamie, I said to them, “Thank you.” I thanked the group. I said, “I now know what it’s like to be the only woman in the room by experiencing some of the feelings that you had about me. I can see what’s it’s like to be the only of your gender in the room. So it was a great learning for me.”

Jamie: And thank you, I appreciate you sharing this story because it shows again that we’re all biased.

Eric: Yeah, we are.

Jamie: It’s not restricted by gender or by position, by class. Bias is in all of us and if we’re not conscious and if we’re not willing to brave that discomfort which you have demonstrated over and over again is the critical thing that can help people get past impasse and create that fulfilling connection where something really magical happens.

Eric: Yeah, exactly, and, I mean, here’s the thing: I also consider myself a feminist. And what I mean by that is when I was growing up, you know, my mother, she read Anais Nin, I don’t know if you know who she is but my mother was at the beginning of the whole feminist movement, so I was influenced by her.

And I am a product of a white, patriarchal society, so as much as I want to see women as equal, I’ve still been impacted by the environment that I was grown up in. So I said to you the other piece is the Me Too movement, when I look at the Me Too movement, when I look at all the women, I mean almost everybody I meet now has a story. I have to take responsibility as a man and say not all these women can have these stories without men being guilty as charged.

And so, what it’s done is it’s made me take a real deeper look at where have I been responsible for some of this? Where have I personally not seen women or objectified women or been impacted by mob mentality, the mob male mentality, I’m talking about, and allowed myself to not be the best that I can possibly be? And so, I think it’s a good time and it’s a very vulnerable time, also.

Jamie: Yeah. I appreciate your vulnerability. I can relate to you. I’m an Asian immigrant woman and I am also a product of both Korean patriarchy, white patriarchy, I mean, I think what I learned is that this bias, yes, it’s systemic, yes, it’s embedded in our society and companies, organizations, but it’s also embedded inside of us. And it’s so hard.

Eric: Insidious.

Jamie: Yes, it’s insidious and it’s so easy to miss that unless you’re really consciously thinking about what you’re thinking about. And so it’s really uplifting to hear from a male ally who is going through this journey and it’s not easy. It’s not easy.

Do you have a personal story? Do you have another personal story that you can share with us about Me Too?

Eric: Yeah, actually, this happened right before the Me Too movement. I was leading a workshop and once again, I can honestly say that the accusations that were made against me were not true. And I also would like to say that probably at other times in my life, I’ve been guilty as charged, okay? But in this particular moment, I wasn’t.

And there was a woman in the class that...I was working with, my co-facilitator was a woman of South Asian descent and for whatever reasons, there was a woman in the class that felt that I was both being sexist and racist. And she reported me to the company that I worked for and I was thoroughly investigated because that’s what happens and it was really, it was hard. It was very, very hard.

Jamie: Do you mind my asking, what do you think triggered this response?

Eric: Well, the only thing I can think of, I mean, you know what I look like, okay?

Jamie: Because I’ve met you, yes.

Eric: So, to the audience, I’m a New York...I look like a tough guy, okay? I’m not saying I am a tough guy but I just look like a tough guy. I look like I could belong to the mob, okay? And I think that just happens a lot. I’ll walk into a room and sometimes that’s worked in my favor, but other times it hasn't. And I think that goes for everybody. What we look like sometimes can work for us or against us.

And I have a condition where my hands shake, so during the class, she did all the flip-chart stuff and at certain points, I would say, “Hey, could you put this up?” You know, I would just tell her. And I think the lady in the class kind of saw me bossing her around. Or she thought I was bossing her around.

Jamie: She saw your co-leader do all the flip-charts and her mind that meant that she was being bossed around by you.

Eric: Yeah, like I was telling her to do all the menial work, I guess. And that’s the only thing I can think of. And, as I said, I’m a pretty direct person and sometimes that directness can get interpreted as bossy or arrogant or I don’t know. That’s the only thing I can think of. She was the only one who had that feedback in the class, so I don’t know. But the point, for me, was that it was horrifying to be accused of that and it was really, really difficult.

And the upshot of it, though, was I suddenly got what it’s like to be profiled. And I suddenly realized, wow, this happens all the time with women of color or people of color, period. And women constantly in the workplace are getting profiled and it really sent me in this journey of not only personal introspection about this but learning systemically what’s going on.

And I really feel like I’m just a beginner in this. I don’t feel like I really know, yet, what this all means but it’s taken me on a really rich, new journey around Me Too, around Black Lives matter, around white privilege. All of that, you know, before this incident, it wasn’t that much on my radar, to be honest with you. And now it’s something on a daily basis that I look at and it’s taken me in directions that’s very fulfilling, let’s just put it that way.

Jamie: Yeah, and thank you for that. And, you know, I’m really encouraged by what is happening in our culture, in our popular culture and social media culture. You know, we’re raising awareness. The conversations, the tone is changing and the media is...last night I saw Crazy Rich Asians and…

Eric: I was gonna ask you about that! I’m gonna see that this weekend.

Jamie: Oh, it was amazing!

Eric: With my daughter, actually, and my wife’s a Filipina so my daughter really kind of identifies with being Asian, so I look forward to that.

Jamie: Yeah. I cried and it didn’t dawn on me how much I had yearned for this kind of representation, seeing people who look like me, people who have a similar background as me on the big screen. And it’s a fantasy, but still, the dream is so meaningful because it touches us emotionally.

Eric: Right. I get it.

Jamie: And so, on that note, I want to wrap this conversation up with a question to you: What is a vision that you hold for equality, for gender equality, where we’re not so systemically held back by these old stories about what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, what it means to be of color, like, what’s possible for us in the future? What do you think, Eric?

Eric: Hmm. Wow. Do we have four hours? I think that - and I’m hope I’m not ruffling any feathers to your audience when I say this - but, you know, politically, right this second, we’re in a very, I don’t know, the only way I can put it is constrictive period where the government is, how do I say this...

Jamie: But take us into the future!

Eric: Well, this is what I’m about to say. So, politically, right this second, we’re in a period of...it’s dark, okay? But, culturally, I think we’re in an amazing period right now. Like you just said, Crazy Rich Asians, Blackklansman just came out. I don’t know if you saw the TV Show Pose. Have you ever heard of Pose? It’s completely cast, it’s about Black and Latino transvestites in the 1980s, and it’s completely cast with real transgender actresses.

Jamie: Wow.

Eric: And both in front of and behind the camera, the LGBTQ community is totally represented in that TV show. I think a lot of groundbreaking stuff is happening right now, so I think the future is very bright. And demographically, I think that it’s very colored, that the United States is moving towards an era where, hopefully, a lot of the issues that we’re talking about today won’t be issues anymore.

Jamie: Thank you.

Eric: I’m very optimistic.

Jamie: Yeah. So, what’s gonna be one thing that we can all do to help bring us closer to that vision?

Eric: You know, I mean, it’s paradoxical because, you know, I mentioned that this is systemic, so change is going to be systemic and it’s personal. So, I think that we all have to find what’s important for us. Like, obviously, what you’ve chosen is to empower women in the area of negotiation.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: That’s specifically your thing. For me, I’m just newly embarking on doing work in the social justice field around training people in underserved communities, training them in coaching skills. So, I guess what I’m saying is that, you know, I think all of us have to individually look into ourselves now and see what is the area that we want to carve out that can make the world a better place. And then do something about it.

Jamie: Beautiful. Yeah, and I’d love for you to come back and I’d love for us to have one more conversation about how to use these amazing coaching skills and the tools to do exactly what you said. How to enhance, how to bring us closer to that compelling vision of a more equal, more just world. So, please share with us, how can our audience learn more about you and the work that you do? Where can they go?

Eric: Okay, so you can go to my website which is ekcosystem.com or you can just email me at eric.kohner@icloud.com.

Jamie: And I’ll make sure to include your website link as well as your email in the podcast notes and for those who are curious, you can also reach me at jamieleecoach.com. My email is jamie@jamieleecoach.com and Eric, thank you so much for your bravery, for your vulnerability and for these really great stories. I hope you have a wonderful day!

Eric: Hey, it’s been a pleasure.

Jamie: Yes. Same here. I’ll talk to you soon!

Eric: I love the work you’re up to!

Jamie: Thank you.

Eric: Bye bye!

Jamie: Bye!

Hey, before you go, I just want to let you know that I will be doing a free webinar. The series will be called Bolder, Braver and Better Paid because, after all, that’s the mission I’m serving, and the first webinar is going to be next Wednesday, August 29th on How to Win Over Difficult People and I’d love for you to join. The link to register is on my site, www.jamieleecoach.com.

Hope to see you there. Bye!