What if You Lowballed Yourself? #SalaryNegotiation

What if you took the job without asking for more? What if you find out only later that you’re getting paid under-market rate? I’ve done this a few times early in my career. In this episode, I share my own experience, insights into shifting your mindset, and concrete strategies and script for renegotiating your pay by articulating your value with confidence and framing for mutual benefit. Please register for next week’s free webinar (9/12/18, 12pm EST) here: www.jamieleecoach.com

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Full Episode Transcript

Hello! Welcome to Episode 34 of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I’m your host and coach, Jamie Lee.

My mission is to help ambitious people like you become bolder, braver, and better paid. And in service of that, I talk about negotiation skills in the context of leadership skills because I believe that when you lead, when you influence, when you negotiate, you thrive, which is exactly what you’re born to do.

Yeah, I believe that.

Tonight, I will be leading a negotiation workshop for the Association of Corporate Councils. This is really interesting. This is kind of funny to me because the event is called “The Power of the Purse: Negotiating as a Woman,” which I love.

And the phrase “power of the purse” reminds me of my mother who came to America as an immigrant around the age that I am now with three little girls in tow and she, while speaking English a little bit worse than Margaret Cho’s mother - Margaret Cho is an Asian-American comedian who does a hilarious imitation of her mother’s broken English, and literally my mother speaks English a little bit worse than that - and yet, she ran her own business.

As a single mother.

As an immigrant.

She worked intensely with an iron-clad work ethic and she managed to put all of us girls through college. She did it single-handedly and it’s still, every time I mention it, it’s like woah. How’d she do that? She did it. She used the power of her purse.

It’s funny to me because, when I was growing up, I realized my mother really valued her purses. She loved, I should say she still loves, her Louis Vitton bag and it’s very valuable to her. I remember being a judgmental teenager and saying, “Mom, why would you do that? Why would you spend hundreds of dollars on a purse? Don’t you want to go on a vacation?” She valued that purse over vacations because that’s how important it was for her, and it’s symbolizes her work ethic, her dedication to excellence, and I’m sure other things.

But when I think of the phrase “power of the purse” I think about my mother and how much she worked, how much she showed me the power of being diligent, believing in ourselves and setting a really powerful example of what is possible for women, for mothers, for immigrants.

And the second part of this event, the second part of the title, is “Negotiating as a Woman,” and I love that. When you read all these articles online you could get the impression that negotiating as a woman is something to be overcome, not to be celebrated.

I am of the opinion that who you are, however you define yourself, as a woman, as a she, as a he, as a they, it is to be celebrated. And it is an asset that brings value because of who you are uniquely in this world. You bring a different perspective, a valuable, a unique perspective to the conversations, to the negotiations that you partake in.

So, that said, I want to talk to you briefly about what to do if you’ve lowballed yourself. What if you didn’t negotiation your salary before accepting a job because you needed to pay the bills, because you needed a job, whatever? You didn’t even realize you were lowballing yourself until later you see that your salary is below market value.

I’ve done this a few times in my career. I’ve had about ten different jobs before I settled on becoming a coach and speaker and I’ve done this a few times. So, I want to offer some strategies today on how to address this.

And the first, the most important thing, is to understand our mindset around this. Now, when we use this phrase “lowball your salary,” what does it make you feel? What are the thoughts that are associated with that? Do you feel that you lost the negotiation by forfeit? That you left money on the table and gosh darn it, you screwed yourself?

Now, nobody wants to be a loser. Especially in our culture that loves to herald winning and success. Negotiating for yourself, negotiating for money can feel like a really precarious walk on that very fine line between failing and losing, winning and succeeding.

And so no wonder so many of us are reluctant and so many of us are anxious to negotiate because we don’t want to fail. If you want to stay safe from failure, it’s tempting to not take action, it’s tempting to not assume any risk, it’s tempting to not risk.

And so the first thing I want to suggest, if you have the thought that you’ve lowballed yourself, is to get clear on your thinking. If you’ve been listening to my podcast for awhile, you would know that my philosophy around this is that your thinking is extremely powerful and your thinking generates the results that you see in your negotiation, in your leadership, in your career, in your life.

So, if you have the thought that you lost, I want to challenge you to reframe that thinking. Get curious about yourself. Why did you do what you did? Why did you not pause to consider whether this was going to be a good offer for you, that this is going to be a good fit?

Is it possible that you had the thought that, “Oh my goodness, if I don’t take this job, I’ll never get another job”? “If I don’t take this job, that means that I would be a failure.”

Also, when I get still and ask myself, okay, why did I do what I did back then, early in my career, take these offers without negotiating for more, I see that I almost unconsciously had this thought that I don’t deserve a great job like this. And before somebody finds out, I’m just gonna take it so that they can’t take it away.

And the emotion that this thought had created in me was fear, anxiety. And from that place of fear and anxiety I just impulsively accepted the offer and the result I had from taking this action was that I had more feelings of unworthiness because then now I realized oh, I didn’t negotiate my salary so I’m a terrible negotiator, I screwed myself and so this thought that I don’t deserve it creates the kind of results that support the thought that I don’t deserve it.

It’s a cycle.

It supports itself.

I want to offer to you, if you can relate to that kind of thinking pattern, I want to offer to you that, no matter the circumstances, no matter how much money you’re making or not making, no matter what your job is, you are enough.  

Why?

Because you are. You exist. You exist and therefore you are enough. Period. You’re breathing. You’re existing. It means that you are here for a reason. You were created and you are enough. It’s not a matter of deserving or undeserving or being a winner or a loser. You are enough. You are okay. Period.

And from there, it takes work, it takes consistent effort to generate new thinking that will help you, that will empower you to renegotiate your salary. Because everything is negotiable. Your job description. Your compensation. How you do your job. Who you do it with. It’s all negotiable. I believe that.

And so, what is the thinking that will help you?

For me, I see that I needed to recognize my own value. I had to own and believe that I add value as a contributor at this organization.

When you think about it, of course you do! Because otherwise, why would they have hired you? Why would they have invested thousands of dollars in the recruitment process, in the interview process. Thousands of dollars, many hours of several people to recruit you, to tell you about the job, to sell you on the job and then to make you this offer, a lot of time, money, effort was invested to get you there because the employer can see that you will add value and that having you in this job, in this company, creates more value than if they had not hired you.

Companies hire you to see a return on investment because they recognize that having a person in this role that you’re in right now creates a multiple of value compared to the money that they’re paying you.

So own it!

You are there because you add value.

You bring value to the table.

And when you can believe that, I think it will help you feel confident and brave. And from this confident and brave place, I want to encourage you to initiate a negotiation or to renegotiate. And in the process of negotiating for a different compensation package or additional perks or benefits, whatever it would take to help you feel that you’re being compensated fairly, you want to demonstrate, you want to articulate, and you want to advocate for the value you bring.

You want to demonstrate that you have brought value in the past, whether that means at past jobs or within the past couple of months or a year, however long you’ve been with this company. You want to show them that you have brought value and you want to articulate what it is that you help them do because a lot of employers, especially busy managers, they don’t realize how much value you’re adding.

Are you helping to resolve problems, to bring in more revenue, to create technical solutions, to bring innovative solutions? Are you helping to solve problems and save money? However it is that you’re adding value, you want to articulate it.

And you want to also advocate for the future value you will add. And I want to stress that because when you go to renegotiate your compensation, a key strategy there would be to show that you have outgrown the job description that you were originally hired to do. The scope of work has increased and therefore the compensation will also increase. Makes sense, right?

I have a client who is a purpose-driven leader in her company and she is really driven by her values of creating positive change in the world. And so the pay is secondary. For her, doing that purpose-driven job is so much more meaningful than money but at the same time, she was getting paid at a level that was below her actual job description.

Even her manager, when he found out that she was at grade x and not grade x+1, he was surprised. He said, “Oh, I thought, you should already be at pay grade x+1. We should really address that.” So, for her, having that ally, her manager, who recognizes her value and agrees that she should be paid at a higher pay grade is definitely beneficial.

And so if you don’t have that ally, go create one.

Demonstrate your value. Articulate your value. Advocate for the value that you are bringing and help your ally see that you would be best served by being at a higher pay grade level because when you are being compensated at a level that is commensurate with the contributions that you bring, not only will you be happier, not only will you be more motivated, but the employer would benefit as well from having retained an engaged employee.

I hear this statistic all the time, I don’t know how true it is, but only 20% or 30% of employees are actually engaged, so if you are engaged, if you are motivated to do good work and to contribute more value, it is a win-win solution for you to be compensated at market rate.

So, having said that, what else should you be curious about? We just talked about getting curious about your own thinking, how to pivot your thinking or to reframe your thinking to see this negotiation as a win-win solution. Also, you want to be curious about the employer.

Why do they do the thing that they do? Why do they offer this below market-rate salary? Now, it’s really tempting to start going into judgment and blame and thinking, “Oh, they don’t deserve me, they don’t value me, blah blah blah blah blah,” right? But that doesn’t help you negotiate in a way that creates connection, understanding, a better reputation, a better relationship.

Just, really get curious without the judgment. What were they thinking? Maybe they didn’t realize how much leadership potential you have.

I coached a client, and she works in the software industry, and what she really wanted was to be a technical solution architect but she didn’t know how to articulate it. She got an offer, she kind of thought, “It’s okay but what would really make this offer great was if it was $15,000 higher and I had a bigger scope of role because I want to grow into that.” And so I coached her and she told them what she wanted.

She said, “I want to grow as a leader. I want to be a technical solution architect because I have these skills and I know that these skills and experiences will benefit both the employer, both you, and our clients.” And the potential employer, when they heard this, they were really happy. They were excited to hear that she wanted to grow as a leader because they hadn’t thought of it. They didn’t realize that that’s what she wanted and so when she said that’s what she wanted they increased the salary offer by $15,000. They gave her a bigger title, Technical Solution Architect, and my client was really happy. So, it’s possible that when your employer gave you the offer that they had, they hadn’t realized that you had this leadership potential, that you could be doing more, that you could be contributing more, that you do want to do this. Because you hadn’t told them!

It’s not too late, if this is the case. Let them know what you’re capable of. Let them know what you want to grow into. Articulate your future potential.

And also another thing to consider is, okay, beyond what I want, beyond what they want and what is possible, are there hidden constraints?

I have done some operations consulting work for tech startups here in New York and sometimes there is cash crunch with these tech companies because for them, demonstrating the value, demonstrating their value proposition is a higher priority than making a profit. And so they invest a lot of money into hiring the best people, into growing their company, but the top-line growth is not there, so there’s no profit. They’re funding the company with investors’ money and sometimes they use up more of the investor money than they can earn and so there can be a cash crunch.

So is there a cash crunch at your company? Are they going to be strapped for money? And if that is the reason why they can’t afford to pay you the going market rate, how can you help address that concern? Can you help them create more revenue at a faster pace? Can you help the company save more money? And if this is the case, could you consider equity compensation? Could you consider other types of compensation? Could you consider a flexible work schedule? So, this is where creative solutions come into play.

And finally, I want to offer just a few concrete strategies before wrapping this up. First is asking for an accelerated performance review schedule. Usually companies do performance reviews, salary adjustments once a year but if you feel that the salary you’re getting is not commensurate with the level of your contributions then maybe you can ask them to do a 6-month review or even a quarterly review.

Say, “Hey, you know, I’d really like to do this because I really feel strongly that the value I’m bringing is beyond the scope of role that I was hired to do, so it would really help me be up front with you and also maybe revisit the compensation structure because I’m invested in the long-term growth of this company.” I think it’s really important to underline how both your interests and the other side’s interests are in alignment.

And of course, the second thing you can do if you feel you’re undervalued is get another offer. Get a competing offer. This is a lot of work and also you don’t want to do that unless you are 100% ready to take that other job if you cannot renegotiate a higher salary with your current employer. But sometimes having that best alternative to a negotiated agreement really helps and it can also create a very clear, absolutely clear signal that your market value is higher than what you’re getting paid now. So this is kind of a last resort, but also a very powerful option that you have.

And finally, the third strategy is use this as a learning opportunity. Every negotiation, every conversation is a learning opportunity. And what have you learned from having so-called lowballed yourself, having accepted a job without negotiating for more?

Perhaps you have learned that you really want to negotiate for more. You really do want to articulate, to demonstrate and advocate for your value and ask for more because getting paid fairly, getting paid the high end of the going market range makes you feel so much better about doing an awesome job. And when you do an awesome job, you do a more awesome job and the employer benefits from your awesome job and their clients benefit from you doing the awesome job, so it’s a win-win-win solution.

So, the three strategies, I just want to reiterate: First, you can ask for an accelerated performance review. Number two, you can consider the ultimate last resort which is to get another offer to signal to your current employer that you really need to have a market rate adjustment, otherwise you will walk. And only do this if you are 100% ready to walk and take that other job. And third, use this as a learning opportunity.

So, I hope this podcast was helpful and I want to let you know that next week I will be doing a webinar, a free webinar, on the seven core elements of negotiation framework. What that means is I’m going to walk you through the seven steps of the at-the-table strategies. At the negotiation, what are the seven key things that you want to see happen? So if you do want to renegotiate your salary, how should you set the stage? What happens at that conversation? I’m going to walk you through the steps and explain how this framework applies to both salary as well as everyday workplace negotiation situations.

Please register at jamieleecoach.com and I look forward to seeing you there and I hope you have a wonderful week. Talk to you soon!

Word-by-Word Script for Leveraging an Offer to Get and Improve Another Offer

Let's say you're an information systems manager interviewing for a new job. You are a strong performer who consistently delivers on projects and assignments.

According to your research, the median base salary for this role is $105,000. Your current pay is $80,000, but you haven't revealed this because you know that past salary questions are becoming a thing of the past. Your past salary has no bearing on your future potential.

So with the new job, you're looking to close the salary gap and to stretch your capacity for higher-level work.

You've interviewed with several leading companies in your field, including Apricot Corp. and Bananas Inc.

Apricot Corp. just extended a verbal offer for $100K. But you're most excited to work with Banana, Inc. with whom you're still in the interview process.

So what do you do to expedite the process and improve the odds of you getting a compelling offer from Banana?

Here's a sample email script with my strategy notes:

Dear Bananas Hiring Manager,

I appreciate you taking the time last week to talk with me, and I'm excited by this opportunity to contribute to your team.

I understand Banana Inc. is looking to grow its functions in a more efficient manner. I'm confident that with my experience in X, Y, and Z and my dedication to excellence, I'll be able to hit the ground running when I join the team.

• To borrow the words of my client who recently negotiated a $15K salary increase, "be awesome to everyone." Continue concurrent conversations with contenders in a positive, collaborative way.
• Note the subjunctive mood of "when I join the team." It expresses enthusiasm and confidence.

In the spirit of transparency, I wanted to let you know that I received a competitive offer from one of the companies I'm interviewing with.

• There's no need to go into specifics or reveal names. The fact that you have an offer is a clear signal to them that you're a desirable and hire-able candidate worth pursuing.

I'm also talking with a few other companies, so I can't get into the specifics of the offer until I'm closer to making a decision. 

• You're letting them know you have multiple options (more options = more power = more leverage).
• You're also respectfully giving a reason why you can't go into specifics while communicating your boundaries.

I've been asked to make a decision by end of the month. But I'd really like to work with Banana team and on the exciting and unique opportunities that we discussed last week. So I'm curious to know if there's a way we can make this work.

• Create urgency with the imposed deadline.
• The language is empathetic with a focus on mutually beneficial solutions -- no ultimatums, which would put the relationship at risk. (Check out Haseeb Qureshi's article: How Not to Bomb Your Offer Negotiation)

Would you let me know if it would be possible to expedite the interview process?

• Get buy-in on the expedited interview process. This would give you a clear signal of whether they're serious about hiring you.
• If no, then part ways cordially. They'd do you a favor by saving you the time and energy of pursuing a dead end.
• If yes, then they may either ask about the details of the competing offer. Better yet, they may extend a verbal offer to not lose you as a candidate.
• At which point, you can do them a favor by letting them know what would make a compelling offer for you: Salary that's commensurate with the going market rate, competitive benefits, or specific perks that align with your personal goals.
• In the mean time, you can also ask Apricot Corp. to improve its offer to meet or exceed the going market rate of $105,000.

Every negotiation conversation is an opportunity for you to lead, by demonstrating your capacity to communicate and to create solutions that are in the best interest of everyone.

My guess is that you might be held back by the voices of the Itty Bitty Should-y Committee who clamor when you brave change. They say, "You can't do that," or "Who says you can ask for that much more?"

It takes courage to negotiate anyways.

Let's be brave,

Jamie

P.S. Can I help you? I specialize in helping my clients shift their mindset so that they can lead, negotiate, and thrive. I also work with my clients on co-creating custom scripts so they can ask for what they want and become bolder, braver, and better paid. Email me at jamie@jamieleecoach.com for details.

Yes Lives in the Land of No

We are often afraid of asking for what we want because we dread hearing no. What if we operated under the assumption that “yes lives in the land of no?” I share some of my deepest fears, recent client successes and misses that demonstrate that yes, “yes lives in the land of no.”

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Full Episode Transcript

Hello! Welcome to episode number 24. This is Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I’m your host and coach, Jamie Lee.

How are you?

How have you been?

Today I want to talk about how YES lives in the land of NO. I love that.

I got that quote from this great book that I am re-reading. It’s called The Prosperous Coach, written by Rich Litvin and Steve Chandler, and it’s all about enrolling coaching clients. So if you are a coach and if you are listening to this, I highly, highly recommend it.

I think it’s so relevant to remember that yes lives in the land of NO for our negotiation strategy because negotiation is simply a conversation with the intention of reaching an agreement where everyone has the right to say NO. And you’ve had that right to say NO ever since you were, what, two years old if you are verbal?

So take your current age - I’m 36, so I’m gonna take two from my age, so for 34 years I have enjoyed the right to say NO. I continue to enjoy the right to say NO. And for 34 years, I’ve engaged in countless small, big conversations with the intention of reaching an agreement where I had the right to say NO.

And it’s the same for you.

In other words, we’ve negotiated most of our lives. Ever since we’ve been able to say that word, NO, because negotiation requires your autonomous decision-making process.

In other words, negotiated agreement is one where everyone involved in the negotiation has considered all the reasons they’d say NO to something.

They’ve considered all their objections.

And in that process, either because of their objections or in spite of their objections, they have arrived at YES. YES, let’s proceed with this particular agreement.

I think it’s really important to remember that because we live in a culture where we are uncomfortable with objections. It’s almost counterintuitive to think through that we have to listen for objections because in our culture we tend to listen for agreement.

You listen to somebody speak at a conference and they’re saying something that you totally agree with and you’re like yes, yes, this is it! And you love it, you’re nodding your head and you write down what they’re saying because you love listening and agree.

Negotiation can be uncomfortable because we have to listen through their objections, address them and help the other side get to a decision and we’d like them to get to a YES, usually, right?

So I see this problem of the discomfort around YES, the discomfort around NO, play out in my business in two ways.

It creates this fantasy because we think of YES and NO as binary. We think of YES and NO as either/or not that YES lives in the land of NO.

So one way this impacts my business is that sometimes I get afraid of doing something really, really well. It’s a very subconscious level of fear. I have this fantasy that if I provide a solution, if I give an offer to my audience, give one freebie webinar, write one spectacular email and then I’ll be just overwhelmed with so many YESes, so many clients will come knocking down my door that I wouldn’t know how to handle this level of success.

There will be too many YESes, and what will I do? They’ll find out that I’m not good enough and it’ll be a total failure.

So there’s this, at a deep level, a fear of success or a fear of too many YESes.

Or there are the other times where I fear getting one stinging rejection and that fear of getting one stinging rejection holds me back from making my ask as boldly and confidently as I know that I could.

And I know that with my clients sometimes this fear of rejection, fear of hearing NO holds them back from speaking up, showing up and having their say.

So you think there’s gonna be either too many YESes - well, I say, I have experienced the fear of too many YESes.

Hasn’t happened yet, though.

Or that there’s gonna be this one stinging NO that’s going to hurt me so much that I would not be able to recover and function.

So this trap happens when I think of YES and NO as binary, as either/or.  But when I consider the truth that YES lives in the land of NO, it sheds light on my negative, limiting beliefs. It helps me see that yeah, I can deal with YESes, I can deal with NOs.

In fact, because YES lives in the land of NO, I should seek out NOs and in the process of seeking out NOs, I can get the YESes.

I also want to tie this back to negotiation strategy, because I know a lot of people that are listening to this, you’re interested in how do I negotiate better? How do I negotiate my salary better, right? And I have spoken in the past of the key strategy of anchoring high and anchoring first.

I think this strategy has sometimes gotten misunderstood by my audience, by people who read my content, so I want to clarify that. I want to clarify that in this strategy of anchoring high and anchoring first, yes, the YES lives in the land of NO. It involves both YES and NO.

Let me clarify. So, anchoring first and anchoring high means, first of all, you want to understand what your target number is. You want to decide on it.

So if you are gunning for a position and you decide I’d be really happy with $100,000. I’m making $80,000 right now and so I would love to make $100,000 in my next job. That’s your target number and you have done your research, you’ve spoken to people in the industry, you’ve done some online research and you know that the going market rate ranges. It’s around $90k to $100k plus.

So once you have done your research and you have prepared your value statements that you can demonstrate your benefit to your potential employer, you can articulate that you are somebody who can help solve their problems and you are somebody who can hit the ground running by contributing value to the company’s bottom line. Once you have done that level of preparation, now let’s talk about your anchor number.

In other words, at this point, you have your target number, what you really want, and you also have prepared your why statement. Why you want what you want.

Okay, so you’d be happy at $100k, but you know that this is a negotiation and that employers are incentivized to hire the best candidate for the least amount of money. It’s not because they are evil. It’s not because they’re anything else. It’s because that’s how good businesses are run. So it’s in their interest to hire for the least amount of money and it’s in your interest to present your case as to why you deserve the high end of the range.

So if you want $100,000, don’t ask for $100,000. Instead, go to your anchor number, go a step or two higher, so ask for $115,000. So when, during the interview process, you’re asked what is your desired salary range, I would suggest to my client in this specific case to go ahead and anchor first and anchor high. “I’d be really happy at $115,000.”

You’re telling them what you want.

This strategy doesn’t just assume that just because you asked for your anchor number that it will be given to you automagically.

It assumes that this will invite the other side to a more in-depth conversation.

So, to be more specific, if the other side says, “You know, that’s a little bit higher than what we had budgeted. Could we talk about other ways to make this work?”, that is an invitation to a brainstorming conversation.

What else do you want? Are there non-monetary terms? Do you want a bigger title? Do you want more PTO? Do you want more face-time with the CEO?

In other words, how can we make this work so that you get what you want, closer to your target number and also sweeten the deal so that you accept this job offer sooner rather than later?

Now, this is an ideal situation, of course. It doesn’t always go that way, I have learned.

I just recently spoke with a client who unfortunately had a negotiation go...not so well. I didn’t coach her through this negotiation, she sought me out after it all went down.

She had assumed that the art of anchoring high and anchoring first is to really, really go extremely high and she did not anticipate the NO. She did not anticipate the objections.

What had happened was she was in a role making about $50,000 and she looked up the role that she wants to have and in that research, she found out that the going market rate is $75,000, which is 50% higher than her current salary.

So she brought this research to the negotiation with her supervisor and she asked for $75,000. She asked for a 50% salary increase.

And the response was a loud and clear NO.

$75k is, she was told, the salary that somebody receives at levels two or three levels higher than she. So they made it clear to her that no, this is not something that we can do. You will get a salary increase but this is not possible and it’s because, in our eyes, you are not a director. You do not have the title of director. We’re not giving you the title of director. So, no, that’s out of the question.

And so, if I had the opportunity to coach her through this, I would have done a few things, which is to advise her to find out what is a reasonable salary range for the role that she is going to be in.

Remember, she was being promoted, just not at a director level. So I would have advised her to do more research so that she could have anchored at a more reasonably ambitious mark.

Also, another thing I would have advised her to do after this juncture, after hearing the initial NO, is not to go to bargaining mode.

Not to say, “Okay well, if $75k doesn’t work, let’s go to $72k. Does that work?”  No. Don’t do that. Obviously, there’s been a mismatch of perception. This NO gave her a lot of information that at this particular employer, that $75,000 range is what somebody who would be two or three levels higher than she would make.

I would have suggested that she just get curious.

She obviously hadn’t done enough preparation, enough research to make a reasonably ambitious ask, but this is also an opportunity to get curious and find out, “Okay, well, you know what? I’m really glad you told me that. I obviously didn’t do enough research. I’d like to find out what is a reasonable salary range for the role I’m going into and I’m also curious. What can I do to set myself up for that director, senior management track? Because I’d love to be contributing at a higher level and also, at the same time, I’d love to be making more money and so, I’d love to know what are you looking for in terms of people who get hired at that level? I’d love to know how I can bridge that gap.”

And so this could have turned into a great conversation that could have generated advice, mentorship, and better understanding.

But I was told by her that unfortunately, this is not what had happened.

It’s so painful to get that initial NO because in our society and culture we have the tendency to attach our ego to our jobs, our salaries, to YESes, not NOs.

What would be possible if we didn’t attach our ego to the outcome?

What if we didn’t attach our ego to that number?

It’s just a number.

And I can hear your eyes rolling as I say this.

Jamie, you don’t understand. That’s easy for you to say because you’re a coach. I need this job. I need this money. I need to be respected. I need to be heard.

I feel so disrespected. I feel so undervalued. You don’t understand. I really need the negotiation to go well so that I can prove myself.

To which I want to share this gem of a quote from one of my favorite negotiation books, it’s called Start With No. It’s written by Jim Camp and I think it’s relevant because when we operate under the assumption that YES lives in the land of NO and when we welcome NOs and welcome YESes equally, we need to lose our neediness. So, I’ll read from this book:

“Today, in the twenty-first century, we’re not needy. We’re just not, but we nevertheless still hear people say, “I need this jacket.” Or “I need to make this call.” Or “I need this job.” Or “I need to talk to you.” Or “I need this deal.” We use the word 'need' much too casually.

The only things we truly need are the basics of physical survival - air, water, food, clothing, shelter - and everyone reading this book already has these.”

And I would add, everyone listening to this podcast, as well.

“We also need the basics of intellectual and emotional well-being - love, family, friendship, satisfying work, hobbies, faith - each reader has his or her own list here. But it’s a short list and it does not - or should not - include the $500 jacket or the $100,000 car, because there are other jackets and cars. It should not include this particular job or sale or deal, because there are other jobs and sales and deals.”

So, what I take away from this quote is that when we lose our neediness, we open ourselves up to abundance. And when we open ourselves up to the fact that YES lives in the land of NO and yes, there may be more NOs than YESes in that land of NO, so much can be possible.

What if we aim for NOs?

What if we aim to listen for the NO and for the objection and to really understand why people say NO to our ask?

What could happen?

I have a client who recently flipped a NO into a YES and in the process negotiated a $15,000 salary increase.

She had a contact with her dream job company. It’s one of the largest online websites in a particular field, I’ll say, for job search and she had one contact, a friend who worked there, so she reached out to her contact, her friend, and she got information about the work culture and through that connection she got inspired to apply for a position with that job through a recruiter.

So she applied and she went through the initial phase of that process, but then she was rejected after that first round, I think it was a phone interview, because they said, “Oh, you know, you’re not quite what we’re looking for, so oh, sorry, we’re not gonna proceed with you.”

So, she was told NO.

But she didn’t let this NO discourage her. She didn’t let this NO get to her ego and create stories about how this isn’t gonna work out for her or that anything would work out for her. Instead, she was open.

And the recruiter said, “Well, we’re not gonna proceed with you, however, if you would like an informal interview, informational interview with one of the hiring managers here since you are particularly interested in this particular job, we can set that up for you.” And she said yes. She said yes to the offer for an informal interview after she was rejected for the job.

And then she did the thing that most people don’t do. She actually followed up on that offer, even though she was rejected. She connected with the hiring manager.

The hiring manager gave her a tour of the office and at the end of this conversation, the hiring manager said, “Hey, would you like a job here?” To which she had to say, “Well, you know, actually I did apply and I was turned down.”

But because she was optimistic, because she followed through, because she showed up in person, the hiring manager said, “Well, you know, we could take that job that you were turned down for, bring it down a notch in terms of hierarchy and see if that will work.”

And so that’s what she did, she was initially applying for a managerial position and then she interviewed again through that hiring manager connection for an assistant manager position and she got that job. And in the process she anchored, she framed for benefit and she increased her salary by $15,000. So, for her, YES lived in the land of NO. I love that story.

So, I just want to wrap this up with this: in your negotiation journey, you’re going to get a NO. You’re going to get NOs. And that’s a good thing. Because it means that you asked. It means that you’re gaining experience.

And when you get that NO, don’t get furious, just get curious. Try to understand why people said no. Listen for objections. And if you listen long enough to their objections and if you try to really understand their objections from their point of view, you have the opportunity to flip that NO into a YES like my client did.

So, I wish you many YESes and I wish you as many NOs, because YES lives in the land of NO. Thank you, and I’ll talk to you soon!

Interview with Leadership and Negotiation Expert Selena Rezvani: How to Negotiate Meeting Culture

Selena Rezvani is a highly sought-after expert on leadership and negotiation who promotes a more female-friendly workplace culture through her award-winning writing and speaking engagements. 

If you've ever been told no, if you've ever been cut off at a work meeting, and if you want to close the gender and racial wage gap, you won't want to miss this podcast interview. 

We discussed: 

- How you can leverage the power of cognitive dissonance to flip a “No” around 

- How tiny, everyday way of negotiating meeting culture can have a huge impact on your career 

- What remains the biggest barrier for women to be heard and respected at meetings 

...and so much more. 

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Full Episode Transcript

Jamie:  Hello, Selena!

Selena: Hi, Jamie. How are you?

Jamie: I’m doing awesome. How are you doing?

Selena: Great, great! Are you having a good week?

Jamie: Yes, I’m having a really wonderful week. How about you?

Selena: Good! Yeah, we haven’t spoken since you’ve kind of branched off on your own, so congratulations!

Jamie: Thank you so much. I just want to say thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom and your expertise on my podcast.

Selena: My pleasure.

Jamie: I’m all about leadership, I’m all about negotiation and you’ve been doing this longer and you’ve written an award-winning book called Pushback that I and many of my peers have read, so again I really appreciate you taking the time on this beautiful day.

Selena: It is beautiful, isn’t it? Finally!

Jamie: Yeah, finally it is. Well, let’s get started.

Selena: Sure.

Jamie: I’d love to hear your personal experience. I’d love to hear about a negotiation in your life or career that had the biggest impact on you.

Selena: For sure. I’ll tell you about one that happened to me in early days. As a teenager, like a lot of kids, I dreamed about going to college, but I knew that was going to be kind of a hardship for my parents. I’m the youngest of four, after all, so I knew that was not gonna be an easy process, but I bounced along, optimistic that that would happen and life kind of had other plans.

I lost my father very suddenly in my teenage years, and aside from just the devastation of that, financially, it became really hard for us as a family and when it came time for college, my wonderful mom who made miracles happen, she said, “Honey, I can just swing everything with the financial aid package you’re getting this year,” (my first year), and I loved that year at college, that first year.

I received my financial aid package for the second year, and to my very shocked upset, it was almost like half as much, despite having a really strong year at school and my mom sat me down and she said, “Selena, I just can’t swing it this time.” And I knew in that moment that the only thing that was going to drive an outcome that might change the situation was gonna be me.

And so I wrote a very long, rambling appeal to the financial aid office at NYU and I was so delighted when they changed my financial aid package to make it doable for my family, not just for that sophomore year, but for the next three years, so that I could finish.

Jamie: Yeah, you asked. You made a bold and vulnerable ask, it sounds like.

Selena: Yeah, you know, so often I find with my clients and in my own life learning to become a more bold negotiator, you get even a whiff of no or here’s how it is, here’s what we can do, and it’s so, so easy to kind of slink away feeling like, well, that must be how it is. That is the final limit. That is the bottom line. And it’s so rare that it actually is the bottom line or the final word.

Jamie: That’s a really inspiring story and I love that you started with a no, right? They were like, “No, this is how much you’re gonna get,” and you were like, “Wait, no! Let’s negotiate. Let me ask you something.”

Selena: Yeah, and I mean there are so many nos you’re going to get in life, and that’s a lesson I wish I had learned earlier as a young person. It’s not if you’re gonna get the no, it’s when. So what are you gonna do? How will you be ready? How will you pivot or who will you engage? What will you do when that happens, not if it happens?

Jamie: Right, right. And what you shared with us is that there’s still room for conversation. You can still ask again.

Selena: Yeah, in fact, I would actually say that the odds are stacked in your favor. Often when you’ve been told no, there’s a cognitive dissonance, a psychological factor that makes it hard to say no to the same person over and over again. So, I would actually say when you’ve been told no, you can almost see it as A) corrective information to change your pitch a little bit or do something slightly different, but B) ask again. It’s very uncomfortable to say no to somebody three times in a row.

Jamie: That’s interesting. That leads me to my next question. I know that a lot of your work is centered around research, and I’m curious to know what are some of the most interesting research findings that you’ve come across on women’s leadership.

Selena: Yeah, well there are so many. This is one of my favorite arenas, I think you know, just to really see the future when it comes to the experience of working women. I’ll tell you one thing I’m really interested in right now, and it’s a tiny, everyday way that we negotiate at work, and it’s negotiating meeting culture.

So, this is an area I’m particularly interested in because you’re an expert at this Jamie, you know that so often people focus on the kind of major pitch or the once a year professional development meeting, but it really is this everyday skill, and you know, you think about meetings, many of us spend hours on end in meetings.

They signal what’s important to a company, what we meet about. Once we’re there, we’re negotiating to make a point in a meeting, we’re negotiating to stand up for our point or somebody else’s when it’s being attacked. We negotiate to try to change the minds of folks if there’s a popular direction we don’t agree with. I think one of the major things that’s almost rampant in workplace culture is around interrupting and I think women need to negotiate that. I think that is an everyday negotiation.

Jamie: Absolutely.

Selena: Yeah. You look at that research, and it almost, it really pains me to say this, but one research point that came out of Journal of Language and Social Psychology - that’s the kind of premier journal - said men and women are both likelier to interrupt when they’re talking to a woman than when they’re talking to a man, so the sex of the interrupter is less of a strong force on interruptions but it’s more the sex of who’s being interrupted.

We are all more likely to interrupt a woman and that’s really a shame because there’s other data that when it comes to groups being most productive and strong, they are most likely to share airtime equally. This is kind of the kindergarten lesson all of us learned, which is take your turn, you know, wait your turn. So, that conversational turn-taking serves teams better and yet interruptions happen to the point where there’s multiple apps, things like Gender Timer.

Jamie: Really?

Selena: Yeah, just to promote this awareness in workplaces. It shows who’s speaking the most, who’s dominating the airspace. There’s even an app, a newer one, called Woman Interrupted. Really! There’s an app for that. It shows that it happens more than we think.

Jamie: It’s almost painful, because it brings back, for me, memories of being an analyst at this financial firm and my manager would ask me to prepare documents to present at the meeting and whenever I would get one word in, I would say, “Okay, this shows…” and then he would immediately cut me off and he would just run the meeting. And I remember it was like that every single time. I would put together the documents, I would say, “Okay, this is…” and then he would cut me off every single time.

Selena: Wow. At least you can say he’s predictable, but wow. I would go so far as to say it can feel dehumanizing, it can feel almost humiliating to be cut off. And it’s even worse, I think when you find your own self saying by default, “Oh, please, go ahead,” without even thinking. I know I’ve done that myself without even noticing I’m doing it. I yield at points and will say, “Oh, please, go ahead.”

Jamie: Yeah. I’ve done it many times.

Selena: Right. And there’s solutions to this and I talk to women about it and men alike because I think they’re part of this just as much, but I think one of the first things is, first of all, having allies in the room who will say something like, “So and so just said that,” or, “The way you’re speaking is making me uncomfortable.” Or encouraging women to say, “Stop interrupting me.” If you are the woman interrupted, I think negotiating that is quite an art. You can keep talking. So one method is keep talking as if you didn’t hear the interruption.

Jamie: Right.

Selena: Truly. Another is to do what I do with my 5-year-old twins, which is just as you would with a child, say to the interrupter “One moment,” while you continue talking or, “I’m not done,” and continue the point you were making. You can kind of shift in your chair. I have done this and seen it have an effect. You’re kind of making your body bigger or showing some physical discomfort and a change and continue speaking a little bit louder. Whatever you do, don’t ask, “Can I finish speaking?”

Jamie: Yeah. So don’t look for permission. Don’t yield. Have your say.

Selena: Have your say. Absolutely. I mean, there is something so programmed and so deep in many of us that women should really accommodate and avoid things that feel escalating or somehow less communal behaviors and it’s up to each of us to kind of change that programming by disrupting it. I think that’s one of the best ways.

Jamie. Yeah, my mentor, Lisa Gates, she says you have to interrupt interruption.

Selena: Absolutely. That’s a perfect way to think of it. Because what will keep it going is that polite dance, the polite but frustrated dance of, “Sure, go ahead,” “Sure, jump in here. What I was saying wasn’t that important anyway.”

Jamie: Yeah. That’s really important and I’m kind of pained to self-reflect and think about have there been times where I’ve thoughtlessly interrupted other women? And probably so, because I did have women reporting to me in my career and I probably did it unconsciously.

Selena: Yeah, I mean, listen, I think it takes a big person, to say that, first of all, and to do that kind of reflection but I think we all do it to an extent. I mentioned that I had twins earlier, they’re a boy and a girl and I’m in this line of work of trying to improve workplaces, to make them more gender equal, to empower women and I correct myself sometimes, too. I correct myself.

I notice if I say, “Can somebody come help me set the dinner table,” if my son kind of is dismissive or distracted, I’ve noticed in the past that I’m a little bit more lenient with that then when my daughter is like, “Well, I want to play more.” As though she should, for some reason, be more communal and be more helpful. I mean, we all have this programming to overcome and it’s so deep it’s almost invisible.

Jamie: Yes. So it takes a lot of mindfulness and practice.

Selena: It does, and sadly I think a lot of organizations today, like you can do the once a year training or the once a year town hall to raise awareness, but it’s not enough for any of us. None of us can have biases continually disrupted and to be reminded consistently if we’re just doing something very, very occasionally to interrupt it. So I think how you weave it into your culture, how you weave it into your life so that it’s an ongoing discussion item.

Jamie: Like a meeting, which happens on a recurring basis every week and so every week you have that opportunity to initiate a brief conversation, to have your say, to speak up, to ask for what you want. I think that’s what you’re saying and I think it’s so important.

Selena: If it’s not part of the company’s operating norms to divvy airtime, to not interrupt, it’s one of the most basic things all organizations can do, that all meeting organizers can do to change the status quo.

Jamie: Yeah. And I can see how that will have a spillover effect into how you are evaluated, how you are perceived by the leaders and the decision makers when they go to think about okay, who’s gonna get promoted, who’s gonna get that plum assignment. The person who speaks up, the person who takes up as much airtime during meetings is probably going to be top of mind, just because they’ve been seen and heard more often than the people who have not.

Selena: You’re a hundred percent right, and I’ll never forget a story that a CEO shared on a panel that I was on, and she said, “We were interviewing for a position. We had one candidate who we knew of but had a reservation or two about and another candidate who looked great on paper but that nobody knew, nobody had really heard them speak.” Who do you think got the job? The flawed but known person. Not the possibly incredible but quiet person and that’s very illustrative I think of the workplace today.

Jamie: Yeah. So, moving on, I’m curious to know what three pieces of advice you have for women who do want to close their wage gaps.

Selena: Yeah, that’s so important, and thank you for asking that question and the first thing I would say is talk to people who don’t look like you about what you make. At one of my first consulting jobs - I grew up in management consulting - I did this. I talked about what I made with my peers, but guess who I talked to. I talked to my two best friends, and they were an African American woman and a Chinese American woman. So, do you think that what the three of us made was really representative of the entire band or level where we sat? Heck no!

According to research, all three of us were probably underpaid, but I used their information as my anchors and to inform what I should be making. I shouldn’t have done that. I needed to talk to white men and men of color. I needed to really get out there, to diversify who I was seeking information from, and I think that’s so important.

I often will say to women, if you feel uncomfortable doing this, bring along a little give. So you can diffuse some of the tension by saying like, “Oh, I have an industry salary report. I’d love to send it to you and share what I learned.” Bring some sort of third party gift if you feel funny asking out of the blue.

You can also ask people things like, “Where do you hope to be?” You don’t even have to ask the question of, “What did you come in at when you joined the company?” but “Where do you hope to be at performance review time or bonus time?” A second thing I think is really important, and I just ran a workshop where some of the women said this made a difference, is shift your mindset from taker in a negotiation to giver.

Jamie: I like that. Tell me more.

Selena: So, this is kind of remembering the oxygen mask phenomenon in the plane. It’s realizing that the more you negotiate for yourself, the more responsibility you have, the more money you make, the more license you have to drive decisions within your organization, the more you can give opportunities to other people, for example. The more you can nominate that very worthy person to lead a division or lead a department. The more you can give to charity. There’s so many ways you can think about this. The more you can do for your family.

And I think that’s important. I think that resonates with a lot of women, that I’m not just like taking for the heck of it when I negotiate. I’m actually looking to make a bigger impact in the world and wow, I can do that if I have more say-so and more money in the bank.

A third thing I would say is, we all kind of know that if you make your ask more communal, it will help you in a negotiation and that’s certainly in line with gender stereotypes that we know.

But I would add one more thing that I think a lot of women have success with and it’s counterintuitive. It’s bringing some humor into negotiations. And I say that because I think a lot of the blowback we get is because of this trope of you’re a strident, demanding woman asking for whatever it is. I think when you have a sense of humor, even one playful, funny comment like, “Research shows that when I ask you for what I’m about to ask you, you’re gonna like me less.” I mean, really, like, diffuse the tension,  even call out the absurdity that a woman asking is gonna make her a little less likable.

Jamie: It’s also calling out the elephant in the room at the same time. It kind of makes them step back and think, “Oh, hmm, interesting.”

Selena: Exactly! It does kind of undress and humanize the conversation a little bit and people have even done this in funny ways with contentious group negotiations.

I read one example where somebody started the meeting knowing this group had a kind of negative history by saying, “Look, I’m gonna be part Oprah, part Dr. Phil, part Jerry Springer today and I hope none of you throw any chairs.” It was a way to diffuse the tension, it was a way to inject some levity and maybe even remind people, is it worth it to get so carried away or so combative? So I think that was really effective. I do think it can help.

There’s also some newer research that shows humor is seen as a form of intelligence by people when they use it “appropriately” so not too extreme in form.

Jamie: Yeah, I love it, because it’s a way of strengthening the bond between you and the other side. We do know when there is a strong bond, you’re, I read, about four times more likely to get what you want.

Selena: Yeah, it makes complete sense that the same reasons you would do small talk or rapport build,  you know that you would also have the occasional laugh.

Jamie: Right, and that makes people relax and just be at ease. If you’re more at ease, you’re being creative, you’re being more forthcoming and that will help you negotiate better, absolutely.

I want to add to your idea of coming to the negotiation table as a giver. I also think it’s helpful to think about how you can give more creative solutions, more value. If you are negotiating for a raise or a promotion, I think you do want to say, “I am committed to bringing more value, and this is how: X, Y, and Z.”  So that way, you’re giving.

Selena: Yeah, I think that’s really smart. It’s really almost like reframing from “Can I have this?” to “Here’s a value proposition.”

Jamie: That’s right, yeah.

Selena: I like your point a lot. You know that that leads to more yes answers than just the “Can I have…?” for my own sake.

Jamie: Yeah, instead of “Can I have…?” be like, “Alright. I want to do more for you, how can we make this work?”

Selena: Exactly.

Jamie: Yeah.

Selena: You stole my line!

Jamie: It’s everyone’s line. So, I’m curious to know from you, you are an expert on negotiation, leadership, on creating more female-friendly workplaces and from that place, what does the word thrive mean to you? What does it look like?

Selena: You know I think it’s very simple. For me, it’s about having a voice. And maybe that’s why I’m so interested in meeting culture, what I was bringing up earlier about interruptions and being talked over or feeling shushed in life. I think a lot of women have felt shushed in their life in some way or another. I have.

And so, I feel incredibly lucky to have been able to write columns about the experience of working women, to write books, to have the agency to say my say-so, to have that self-expression. I tell my kids the same thing. I encourage them, “You can do whatever you want as a grown-up in your career but make sure you have a voice. Have a say in what matters to you. Steer the conversation. Use your articulation to shine a light on something that people aren’t seeing.” That is such a gift, and it’s one I will never stop appreciating.

I had a job early in my career and it was at the kind of firm where anything you said outside of the firm in a blog or in an interview like this needed to be checked by about twelve PR people and sometimes massaged before it could be put out there in the world. I could not stand that and I couldn’t live that way and so I think that’s really important to have a voice and use it.

Jamie: I love it. I have to say throughout all this time I’ve just been nodding my head. You just can’t see me, but I’m like, “Yep. Exactly!”

Selena: I love it. The vigorous nodding. I’m feeling it, Jamie, I’m feeling it.

Jamie: Yeah. So, just one quick personal question: What’s your favorite color and why?

Selena: Yeah. This has not changed in my entire life, but purple. And I really love the dark, kind of almost the color of an eggplant. That’s my favorite kind. Mysterious.

Jamie. Nice. Okay, cool. So where can people learn more about what you do and your work with Be Leaderly?

Selena: Yeah. Beleaderly.com is a great place to find us and we’re also on Facebook and Twitter, on Instagram, we have lots of lively dialogue and share as many super usable tips as we can, so please join us on those and we can continue the conversation!

Jamie: Yeah, this was a really valuable conversation. I love the tips about how to interrupt interruptions at a meeting so you can have your say and use your voice so you can thrive! I love that!

Selena: Well, thank you so much. I hope we get to do this again, Jamie, it was awesome.

Jamie: Same here. Thank you so much for your time, your expertise and your voice.

Selena: Thank you.

Jamie: Okay. Bye-bye.

Selena: Bye.

Three Scripts for Sidestepping Illegal Salary Question

The good news: Local governments (CA, OR, MA, DE, Philadelphia, and NYC) are taking the lead in banning salary history question ("What did you make in your last job?") that perpetuates the gender wage gap. 

The bad news: Bad hiring practices still dominate most of the country.

Check out the podcast for three concrete strategies and scripts for sidestepping the dreaded question so you can get paid for your value, not for an irrelevant past.

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Full Episode Transcript

Hello! Welcome to Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I am your host, Jamie Lee. I am a leadership and negotiation coach and you can go to jamieleecoach.com for more information.

I’m curious. How are you thriving today?

Yesterday, my dear older sister gave birth to a baby boy. So, yesterday afternoon I had the mind-boggling privilege of holding a twelve-hour old newborn infant. I don’t think it’s very often you get to do something like that, and it was amazing.

I immediately fell in love. Immediately.

He is pure perfection. And yes, you can call me Auntie Jamie now. Well, at least he can.

I was holding him in my arms and I was counting his ten little perfect fingers, ten little perfect toes, and I also saw he had his full capacity to emote, his full capacity to express himself, to wail, to get our attention, which meant he had his full capacity to engage the people around him, his full capacity to enrapture grown adults who were all just goo-goo gah-gahing, and all of us head over heels in love with this newborn infant.

And I had the thought, “Here is a little fella who is truly born to thrive.”

He’s got everything he needs. He’s exactly who he needs to be and he is thriving.

He is loved.

He is connected.

Today I was walking around the streets here in New York City, and of course, we have this incredible diversity of people: old, young, white, black, brown, yellow, all colors of the rainbow. And I thought, “Wow. All these people around me with their incredible diversity, we were all once a tiny little, perfect newborn baby.”

We were all born to thrive.

So, that’s how I’m thriving today.

Today I have three scripts for you that you may want to either bookmark or share with somebody who is in the process of looking for a new job or negotiating a salary.

The thing is, it’s three scripts to sidestep an illegal or ill-advised question.

And that question is: What did you make at your last job?

It’s the attempt that employers make to peg your future earnings to your past history instead of your potential to contribute and add value.

Now, it makes sense from the perspective of hiring managers and employers. It may make sense to ask this question because it is in their best interest. They are incentivized to hire the best talent for as little money as possible. It’s good business, right?

And so if you ask this question - What were you making in the last job? - and you were making something that is under market rate, then they might attempt to just pay you either an increment more than what you were making or at the same rate so that they can hire the best talent for as little money as possible.

And you see the problem here is that this perpetuates the gender wage gap.

We know from numerous studies and research that women tend not to ask as much as men do and that men tend to be rewarded with salary increases, raises, and promotions more often than women without them asking, and that when women do ask, we tend to encounter gender blowback or feedback that we’re being bossy, intimidating, aggressive, etc., which are considered unfeminine, therefore unbecoming attributes.

So, you know what? I’ll just say it. It’s not fair.

It’s not fair for employers to ask this question, What were you making in your last job?

It perpetuates the gender wage gap. It shows this intent to pay you for, not what you’re truly worth, but for your past history, which is irrelevant to your future potential and your ability to add value.

Here’s the good news. This ill-advised question is becoming illegal in several places around the country. Particularly coastal states and cities. So, if you live in Oregon, if you live in California, if you live in Massachusetts, if you live in New York City, if you live in Philadelphia, and if you live in Delaware, this question - What did you make in your last job?- is illegal for employers at both public and private companies to ask you as part of their hiring process.

So, that’s the good news. That laws are being passed to really make an impact on closing the gender wage gap. This is great.

However, the bad news is that bad hiring practices still dominate most of the country.

So, if you don’t live in New York City, if you don’t live in Philadelphia, if you don’t live in Delaware, Massachusetts, Oregon, California or we should add Puerto Rico where it’s also illegal, it’s still very much legal for employers to ask this question, even though it is ill-advised.

It gives them the upper hand and it gives them the opportunity to peg your future earnings to an irrelevant past.

So, here’s what you can do when you are asked to reveal salary history in these other places where the questions are not yet illegal:

First, you can redirect the flow of conversation. Remember, negotiation is simply a conversation with the intention of reaching agreement. So, redirect the flow.

You can say, “You know, before we talk salary, I’d like to establish that this is going to be a good fit for both sides. Would you tell me more about your expectations and how you measure the success of this position?”

Alternatively, you can pivot or redirect the flow of the conversation by saying, “You know, I first want to establish that this is going to be a good mutual fit,” and ask different questions.

You can ask, “What are some of the challenges you expect the person in this position to face?” and this question gets them to share information that’s going to really help you better understand what this position is going to be like.

Another really good question you can ask is, “Thinking back to the people you’ve seen do this work previously, what differentiated the ones who were really good from the ones who were really great at it?” I like this question a lot because then it gets people to really tell you how you can excel in this position and then you can see for yourself whether you are a good fit.

Or, you can also ask, “What’s your timeline for next steps?” “Whom should I speak with after this conversation so that I can establish that this is going to be a good mutual fit?”

So, those are some questions you can ask to redirect the flow of conversation instead of answering this salary history question.

But, of course, some employers will insist or they’ll tell you that you can’t move forward in the process unless you answer that question, in which case another thing that you can do is that you can turn the table around and give some advice.

Here’s the script:

“Did you know that local governments and companies like Amazon are banning that very question because it perpetuates the gender wage gap? You know, I’m trying to look out for you, and it may be in your best interest to reconsider asking that question as part of your hiring process, especially if you want to continue to attract high-quality candidates who care about pay equity and social justice issues.”

I think this script will work really well to your advantage if you can be in control of your tone. If you feel angry and resentful and your voice becomes abrasive or defensive or accusatory, it’ll sound really different.

Take for example:

“HEY! Did you know that local governments and companies like Amazon are banning that very question you asked?!” The subtext there is: Hey, what is wrong with you? Don’t be stupid!

So, yes, it’s a script that can work, but I think it does require more self-management.

Here’s a third script, or third strategy:

Instead of answering a question by sharing your salary history, anchor with your salary expectation.

And if you’ve been listening to my podcast, you would know that anchoring is one of the key strategies for negotiation success. It makes good use of our very common cognitive bias of leaning towards the first piece of reasonable information that enters the conversation.

In other words, if you get to tell them first what you want, you’re more likely to get something that is very close to what you want.

So, to anchor, you might say something like, “You know, I’m looking to be paid x amount of dollars, which is the high end of the going market rate according to my research, and that’s because my unique background, my skill sets, and strengths can help your company meet its goals and objectives.”

What you’re doing is you’re tying your number to how they will benefit from your potential to create value, which has nothing to do with your past salary history.

So there you have it. You have three core strategies.

• You can redirect the flow of conversation by saying something along the lines of, “You know, before we talk about money, I first want to make sure that this is going to be a good fit and I have some questions for you.”

• Number two, you can turn the table around and give some advice. “Hey, did you know that that question is becoming illegal? You might want to reconsider asking that question. I’m looking out for your best interest here.”

• Number three, anchoring with your salary expectation, not history. “I’m looking to be paid x amount of dollars, and that’s because of my unique strengths, my skill sets, my background and my potential to add value to your organization.

If you want to learn more about the strategies, feel free to check out my previous podcast episodes.

I did one that addressed the three most frequently asked questions around salary negotiation and I most recently did an interview with Katrina Jones, who is an HR, diversity and inclusion expert, who explained how leading tech companies like Vimeo establish their compensation philosophy and the work and the research that goes into putting together an offer.

The bottom line in that interview was that if you are getting an offer, you have the upper hand because they really want you to say yes.

So, in conclusion, next time you’re asked an illegal or ill-advised question, remember, you do have the power to redirect, to inform and to anchor for what you want.

And remember that if they’re talking to you, that means you have something they want. They want your skills, they want your contributions, they want your unique blend of strengths and experiences and background and education.

You have leverage and you can thrive.

Thank you!

If you’d like to learn more about my negotiation and leadership coaching services, please come check out jamieleecoach.com. Talk to you soon!

Katrina Jones: Negotiation Secrets from HR, Diversity & Inclusion Expert

Katrina Jones is an accomplished HR executive and fierce champion for diversity, equality and inclusion. She currently serves as the Director of People & Inclusion at Vimeo and is also an adjunct faculty at NYU Wagner.

In this interview, Katrina shares: What do employers think about when they put together an offer to a candidate? What are some of the best salary benchmarking resources? What should women who want to close their wage gaps do? What sets apart the people who excel at negotiating and leading at work? She shares insider's insights, scripts, and timeless strategies for getting what you want and getting ahead at work.

Follow Katrina on Twitter: @Katrina_HRM

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Full Episode Transcript

Jamie:  Hello! Welcome to the eighteenth episode of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I am your host, Jamie Lee. I believe that negotiation skills are leadership skills and that we’re all born to thrive.

And we can thrive when we learn from each other and when we brave that uncomfortable ask. And it’s often about salary, isn’t it?

So, today I have a very special guest. My guest is Katrina Jones, who is an accomplished HR executive and fierce champion for diversity, equality, and inclusion. She currently serves as the Director of People and Inclusion at Vimeo, and she is also an adjunct faculty at NYU Wagner.

She is an expert on pay negotiation because she is the person who puts together these offer packages for candidates that she hires at companies like Vimeo and I thought it would be really great to hear about salary negotiation from the perspective of somebody who works in HR, somebody who is an advocate for diversity, equality, and inclusion.

Both of us being women of color, I think this is going to be a really great conversation. So, I hope that you gain valuable insight and that it helps you get bolder, braver and better paid. Enjoy.

Katrina: Hi, Jamie.

Jamie: Hi, Katrina! How are you?

Katrina: I’m well, how are you?

Jamie: I’m doing excellent. Thanks so much for joining us on this podcast. I’ve not had an HR expert on the podcast to talk about negotiation, so this is really interesting for me, and I think it will be really interesting and helpful for our listeners.

So, would you share some insights as an HR expert on how employers like Vimeo put together a compensation package? I’m really interested in learning about the thought process that goes into putting together an offer.

Katrina: Absolutely! I’m really grateful for the opportunity to join your podcast and to be part of it and have this conversation - an important conversation - about compensation.

For Vimeo, we first set by defining our compensation philosophy, which is something that happens outside of the recruiting process and extending an offer. We aim to be competitive with what the market is paying out across roles, and we know that we’re recruiting against the likes of a Facebook, a Google and other local tech companies in Silicon Alley, so we do need to be competitive.

So, we will conduct market research to know what a particular role pays for or what the median range, what the pay range is for a particular role. So we’ll do that research. We have a budget, of course, that salaries are built into, and so at that point, we’ll get into negotiations as part of an offer, potentially.

And we do make the best offer possible. So, our goal is not to put people into a position where there’s a ton of negotiation, but the goal is to make sure that it’s a really great offer that will close the deal because ultimately when you’ve gotten to the point of offer, we just want to hire you. We really want to bring you on board, and we will work to get to the yes. So, that’s something that’s important to think about.

And of course, as part of our offer - and offers vary - so, offers can include equity, they can include, of course, we have great benefits, our health benefits, as well as other insurance benefits and what we offer, our unlimited vacation, which is a fantastic benefit and really cool company and great company culture as well, with an amazing CEO who’s a woman of color. So, these are all things that - there’s the salary piece, and there are the intangibles as well. I should say salary and overall compensation.

Jamie: Yeah. So, it’s really good to know that from the HR perspective, you really want to get that yes.

Katrina: Yes, absolutely!

Jamie: And also, that you’re not just thinking about the salary component, you’re thinking about making a really compelling offer with the intangibles and the benefits and the culture. So, I guess for people who are getting prepared or thinking about, oh, how do I negotiate an offer, you have to really think about the whole picture.

Katrina: Yeah. Absolutely. And for a lot of companies, tech companies, in particular, depending upon the level of the role, there is often an option for equity, which is incredibly important and I would encourage people to ask for that or negotiate for that. At the minimum, ask whether or not equity is a part of the package, but that can certainly sweeten the deal.

But for anybody who’s going through a recruiting process, know that once you get to the offer, the employer, the organization, the hiring manager on the other side really just wants you to say yes.

Jamie: Yeah. So, in a sense, people do have leverage when they’ve been offered a job.

Katrina: Yes! Yeah, you definitely do have leverage. And I can say this from personal experience, where I’ve been able to negotiate my base salary based on what I brought to the table, what I bring to the table as an HR and diversity and inclusion practitioner, and say “That figure is great, I appreciate the offer,” or “Thank you for the offer. I’m really excited about the opportunity. In terms of base salary, this is what I had in mind based on these reasons why.”

Jamie: Yeah. And I appreciate that, because that’s the same script I offer to people and it almost always starts with that appreciation and enthusiasm, because it might sound like just soft language, but it’s really important to communicate that no, you really are excited, and you do feel enthusiasm for what the company is doing. Otherwise, you don’t really have a reason to be talking.

Katrina: Right. I was just going to say, I am totally, wholeheartedly in agreement with you that that language is important to say thank you and to be enthusiastic about the offer that you’ve been presented with, and then pivot to that next part of the conversation, which is “This is what I was thinking of,” or “This is the number I would like us to get to, that I’m hopeful we can get to.”

Jamie: Right. Speaking of numbers, I’m really fascinated by the research that practitioners like yourself would do to put together an offer, because a lot of my clients, they go to Payscale.com, Salary.com, Glassdoor.com, and depending on what they type into that search box, they might get a completely different number.

You just change the title or change the geographic data, and the range can be really astronomical, and that can lead to confusion as to what is the going market rate. So, what is the level of research that you do when you put together an offer?

Katrina: Yeah, so we are, and most companies have access to research, so there are companies out there, compensation companies and other compensation consulting companies and other talent consulting companies that what they do is they benchmark salary data. So, we have a compendium of annual data that we have access to with salary ranges for certain positions.

And this is fairly common, I would say, across industries. I’ve worked in the law firm industry before, and we similarly had research from a company called Towers Watson that we would access when evaluating compensation. So, there are companies like Towers Watson, other companies out there, that they solicit data from companies, they benchmark and then they turn around and then sell that data to a broad range of companies.

Jamie: Yeah. So, in your opinion, do Glassdoor, Payscale, Salary.com, do they even come close?

Katrina: It’s very mixed. My recommendation is those are great resources at least to access and to get a sense of what the range would be.

I would also encourage people to reach out to recruiters if they have any recruiters that they have personal or professional connections to, and just ask them about what the salary range is and salary ranges are for roles that they’re recruiting for. That can be a great predictor of what’s the range, what should you ask for, and will get you closer to what is the range for a company of x size, versus a company of y size, or in this sector versus another sector.

And I think that’s what makes it difficult to really accurately pull data. What you’re getting from Salary.com or from Payscale can be across a multitude of industries, including, for example, the hospital and health industries, other industries and so that is definitely not an apples to apples comparison.

Jamie: Yeah.

Katrina: Another site that’s really great that I also encourage people to visit is Fairygodboss.com. So, Fairygodboss is designed for women, specifically, that aggregates and publishes reviews and information on company salaries offered to the site, and it’s aggregated by company, so you can actually look for a specific company and start just looking at some of the ranges, and it’s all pulled from real reviews that are out there by women working at these different companies.

Jamie: Thank you for sharing that. I also know that Fairygodboss, they have data on company culture, work-life balance, as well as maternity leave policies. Like, which companies actually have paid maternity leave, etc. Information that’s really helpful for women in particular.

Katrina: Yes. I find it to be helpful, I think, for people in that they have a comprehensive - and some of this actually vetted with the companies directly, so that they have given their permission to publish what they offer across their benefits from maternity or parental leave and beyond, and I find that those are pieces of information that are really hard to get during that process to understand, in addition to salary, because you should think about that as well, what will you be paying for health insurance, for instance, or what kind of leave is offered? If you are asking for one salary, but your health insurance premium is $30,000 annually, that can make a dent into your salary and may or may not change what you negotiate for.

Jamie: Okay. There’s a lot to think about. It’s always good to know that these are specific things you can look out for and that there are great resources available. So what advice do you have for women who want to close their wage gaps?

Katrina: So, that’s a great question, and the advice that I would give to women is to ask for more, to always ask for more. When you are negotiating a salary for an initial offer, always ask for more money. The worst that the organization will do is hold firm and say no, but chances are it may be that you’re able to negotiate for more money, it could be for more benefits, it could be for increased equity. Everything is on the table when you’re at that final offer.

Jamie: Because they want your yes!

Katrina: Yeah. They want your yes. They want to close the deal. By the time you’ve gotten to final offer stage, they are just waiting to send you that welcome packet and they are eager to welcome you into the company. So, you do have real leverage there.

I would also encourage women to ask for and to meet with their managers to meet at least a couple of times a year to talk about their career path and talk about what opportunities are out there for them. So, internally, just being very intentional about how you grow your career within a company, looking for those other opportunities. If you’ve had a really great quarter or a great couple of quarters, asking for perhaps a spot bonus, and I think what comes with that is also doing some research to understand what compensation opportunities are out there, and what does the company offer.

Do they provide spot bonuses? Are bonuses purely on a year-end basis or part of the review process? But you never know until you ask, and once the ask is out there, again, the worst thing that they can do is say no. But, what they might do, and what often happens is they come back with at least a timeline of when you could have your salary reviewed for an increase or really advocate for yourself for that year-end bonus.

Jamie: I love that you’re tying in the fact that you have to be strategic about the development of your career. It’s not just about money, but what kind of assignments are you asking for, and then from there, once you have contributed value, then you have an even better case for the money that you want.

Katrina: Absolutely. That is incredibly important, that you are able to - I always encourage people to be specific and to share some data about what have you done. Have you increased market value? Have you increased page views or site clicks or whatever you’re working on? Have you decreased a budget or filled a budget gap? Being able to translate that into, this is what I’ve saved the company in terms of money that I’ve saved the company or this is how I have increased the company’s value.

Jamie: Right, right. That’s something that I discussed in this earlier webinar I gave about how it’s really important to quantify your value. Yes, you are valuable and you need to be able to express it in quantified terms, right? The x percentage in increase in revenue, number of clients served, customer satisfaction rating went up, that’s quantifiable.  So, thank you for reminding us of that very important career strategy.

Katrina: Absolutely. And if I can just share one more piece of advice, I know there are some people who are kind of journeywomen and who will move around to different companies, different organizations, and some people who might stay in one spot and they have tremendous career opportunities and great visibility and great relationships and lots of other things that make them stay on with a company for quite some time, and that is great.

And I would also encourage you to even write out, periodically, for what else is out there in the market (in relation to your position). That can also be a great way to benchmark against the desired skills in the market. Also, if you can find out information that way about salary or other benefits that are being offered so you can continue to remain competitive in your career as a professional and of course from a compensation standpoint. You have access to that information.

Jamie: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. So, I’m curious to know, since I imagine you do deal with a lot of salary negotiation, do you see a pattern between people who are vocal, people who are proactive about asking for more money, more hot jobs, great opportunities and those who actually lead?

Katrina: That’s such a great question! I can’t generalize, but I do see some people forcefully advocating for themselves and really holding firm, and I don’t know that it’s explicitly split by gender, say, that men advocate more forcefully for themselves versus women, or personality type, but where I find that people are successful is people that really understand the business, understand how the business makes their money and can speak to that, understand the value that they bring to the organization and can tie all of those things together.

Jamie: Oh, wow, that’s a really good point. You really need to understand how the business operates, how the business makes money, and what is the impact of your work on the operations.

Katrina: Yeah, how does your work contribute to that?

Jamie: Yeah, tie it all together so you can paint the full picture. Okay, thank you, yeah, that’s a really good one. And so do you see that those who can see the full picture of how the business operates and how their contribution impacts the business, do you see that those people tend to be leaders?

Katrina: I do. Because they have a holistic view of the business versus just looking at their part, and I think what is challenging sometimes is we get very heads down and can be siloed in these roles, but to look up and to understand what products do we produce, or what services, or who are our huge clients, how long have they been clients?

But really just understanding more deeply about the business, and that is something I think is something that everybody should do, and I have seen incredibly brilliant women who are business-minded and think about organizational health in that way and think about the business in that way, and then think about their careers in that way in terms of let me think about where I sit in this big picture.

Jamie: Nice, nice. So, one more question for you. As you know, my podcast is called Born to Thrive because I believe we are all born to thrive, no matter our gender, creed, sexual orientation. What does the word thrive mean to you?

Katrina: You know, it’s so funny that you ask. So, thrive is one of my absolute favorite words, and I’m always positioning things in terms of how can we thrive? How can we help, especially as an HR practitioner and diversity practitioner, how can I help people thrive? And it has so many meanings for me. For me, it means just traveling along joyously on that journey of life. That there are peaks and there are valleys, and it’s how do I maintain during those moments where I’ve hit a valley. How do I persist through?

Because the journey is a mix of overwhelming, incredibly joyous moments and it’s a mix of moments of sadness and tough times, right? But it is about how do you get through? So, when I think about thrive and what that word means to me, I think about grit and resiliency and how you push through til you get to the next mountaintop. The next high peak.

Jamie: Love it. Where can people learn more about you and what you do?

Katrina: So, I have a Twitter account and I’m incredibly active on Twitter. I share lots of news within the HR and diversity and inclusion discipline, and also speak about a lot of the current stuff that’s happening across businesses. So, you can find me on Twitter, my hashtag is @Katrina_HRM and then of course on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn and click my profile and definitely connect with me on LinkedIn. I love connecting with new people and follow me on Twitter as well and you can read all of my musings on a variety of things.

Jamie: That’s how we met! I met you on Twitter and then we connected on LinkedIn.

Katrina: Yes! Yeah, social media, that’s a whole other conversation, but I am a huge proponent of social media and the value of connecting virtually and what those connections can bring. It really does expand your network tremendously, and I’ve been able to connect with so many amazing people including yourself, and so many other people and I learn so much, so it’s just fantastic.

Jamie: Thank you. So, Katrina, what I’m taking away from this conversation is that when somebody gets an offer from a great company like Vimeo, they really do have leverage, because they want your yes, and you don’t have to be afraid to ask for more, of course, within reason, right?

Another thing is that it really helps to be able to see the full picture. That was a really good takeaway for me. So, thank you so much, Katrina for your valuable time, for sharing your great insights from within the trenches and I’ll be sure to let everyone know where they can find you on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Katrina: Okay, awesome! Thank you. And thank you again for having me. I’ve really enjoyed being a part of the podcast and look forward to connecting with your audience.

Jamie: Awesome. Have a great day, Katrina! Thank you.

Katrina: You too.

Why Do We Suck at Advocating Our Value for Money?

But first a reality check: Is it true that women don't like to negotiate for ourselves?

And why do we still choose to believe that we suck at negotiating for money?

I look at my own career for answers and explanations. 

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But first a reality check: Is it true that women don't like to negotiate for ourselves?

Last week, I gave a keynote on the topic of negotiation for Women in Auto at the NY Auto Show.

Before I went on stage, organizer asked the audience, “How many of you enjoy negotiating?”

To her surprise, half the room raise their hands.

Some women do enjoy negotiating. In October 2017, Wall Street Journal reported that more women are asking for raises than before. Lean In published a similar report.

With Equal Pay Day around the block and the gender wage gap pressing on our minds, it may not seem that the tide is rising fast enough for women, but I believe the tide is changing. Slowly but surely.

Why do we still choose to believe that we suck at negotiating?

I don’t have to look too far for an answer.

When I look back on my own career, I see that I did once dread negotiating my salary.

Mostly because I had no idea...

• What it is (a conversation that leads to an agreement), 
• How to do it (like a human being engaging with another human being through language) and 
• Why I had to do it (because my career is mine to grow and develop, and getting paid my worth feels incredibly good, and when I feel good I do even better work) 

From my personal experience having bungled salary negotiation in epic style, I see that I was once under the spell of Tiara Syndrome.

Have you heard of the Tiara Syndrome?

It’s when you believe that if you just keep your head down and do really good work, some authority figure will come and place a tiara on your head.

You know, like in a fairy tale.

In this fairy tale, it would be unbecoming, or unladylike, to speak up, “ruffle feathers”, or “make waves.” Fairy tale princess (or prince) would never stoop so low to advocate for the value of her contributions.

I’ve certainly fallen under the spell of this Tiara Syndrome.

Early in my career, I once worked as a buyer for a fast growing beauty company. I came up with a plan that had the potential to save the company $100K.

I got to present this plan to the big shots in a boardroom. Everyone in the senior management team was there. After that I was on a high.

I thought, “This is it! This is how I’m going to be promoted and get a big raise. Things are made for me.”

So, I didn’t ask.

Because I thought someone was going to place a tiara on my head. Yes, I was that naive.

Can you guess what actually happened?

No promotion. No raise. Just a pat on the back. “Good job. Keep it up.”

Hey, but I get it. I relate to my clients who seek my help with this stuff. It IS uncomfortable to advocate for our value...especially for more money.

After all, we’re socialized to think that recognition for our value is supposed to come from OUTSIDE of us.

The tiara, the validation, the praise, and the money -- we think it's supposed to come from external forces, or figures to whom we assign power and authority.

Here’s the thing, though:

Owning our value, creating value, and advocating for our value -- it starts from WITHIN us.

It starts with YOU being kind to you.

It starts with YOU investing in your growth.

It starts with YOU honoring what feels good from the inside.

It starts with YOU dreaming of what is possible from that feel-good place.

It starts with YOU creating solutions in your mind that helps other people, and THAT, my friends, is the definition of value that results in money.

Value that generates money is in creating solutions that benefits others.

So how do we get the gumption and the guts to negotiate for money?

Tactically, don't give a range if you want to get something in the middle. The bottom number in your range will become your starting number.

Not because employers are evil, but because it's in there interest to retain the best talent for as little money as possible.

Find your target number, go a step or two higher and anchor there. If you'd be happy with $100K, then ask for $120K. If you want $150K, then ask for $175K.

After all, you'll only be negotiated down from there.

But most importantly, focus first on value, not money.

If you create value for other people, money will follow.

I once heard that it was extremely hard to keep Mother Teresa and Ghandi poor because they generated tremendous value for other people even though they committed their lives to live in poverty.

So to become a powerful negotiator, create value. Create solutions that help others and own your value.

Don't apologize for being awesome. State your unique value. 

Know your target, anchor high, and make your ambitious ask for more money. 

Because if you're creating value in the world, money will follow, like a magnet. 

Three Surprising Negotiation Insights From Women in Auto

What are the negotiation secrets of women leaders in the automobile industry?

I share inspiring insights from the Women in Automobile Networking Breakfast at the New York Auto Show and talk about how you can apply these insights to gain the upper hand in your career negotiations.

Click here to download the free script: How to Ask for a Big Pay Raise. 

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Full Episode Transcript*:

(*This transcript has been edited for accuracy) 

Hello! Welcome to the twelfth episode of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I am your host, Jamie Lee. I work as a negotiation and leadership coach for women on the rise. 

Yesterday, I got to give a keynote at Women in Auto. This was a networking breakfast held at the Javits Center where the New York Auto Show is happening right now. I got to meet and hear from some really amazing, impressive women leaders in the auto industry, and to provide some context as to how impressive that really is, I’ll share some information with you.

In America, women influence 85% of car buying decisions, and that’s equivalent to $550 billion in car revenues. That’s a lot of money that women influence, and yet only 26% of the jobs in the auto industry are held by women. So, the women leaders, executives in the auto industry, they truly are pioneers in a male-dominated industry. 

Something really interesting that I observed yesterday was that right before I got on the stage, the organizer asked the audience a question. She said, “How many of you enjoy negotiating?” And half of the room raised their hands. That’s admirable and also unusual.

Maybe it’s my stereotype, but a lot of women do say that they don’t like to negotiate, that they don’t enjoy it, but half of the room yesterday at Women in Auto said they do. I think this is indicative of their attitude toward negotiating.

So, women who say they do like negotiating, they are more likely to see it as a fun challenge that will help them grow their skills and help them gain value and engage, connect, collaborate.

Whereas women who say that they don’t like to negotiate, they see negotiation as a “rough” conversation. That it’s a game rigged against them, that they’re going to lose something. That they have to compromise, and they feel sort of let’s say, like they’re already at a disadvantage before they go into the conversation, because they see themselves not as somebody who’s going to learn and grow from the conversation, but somebody who has to give something up.

So, how do you see yourself? Do you enjoy negotiation or do you dread it? And if you dread it, maybe you can start thinking of it in different ways, so that you wouldn’t dread it as much.

So, let me share with you some of the really inspiring insights that I gained from listening to the leading women in auto. There were two speakers in particular who really touched me, who really moved me. 

The first speaker, her name is Suzanne, and she is the GM, she is the General Manager at Helms Brothers Auto, which is one of the biggest Mercedes resellers in New York, and she said she started as a receptionist more than thirty years ago in the auto industry and she worked herself up to become the General Manager.

She emphasized two points. One is the importance of improving yourself every day. She said that she improves herself every day so that she can have a positive influence on others, and I thought that was really inspiring.

The second was the importance of being consistent. Being consistent even when there are so many changes in the industry, and every day there are unknowns and curveballs thrown her way, but every day she is consistent in her effort to add value. I thought that was really inspiring, too.

She was asked, “So, how do you negotiate? What is the secret to your negotiation success?” and that really got my ear and I jotted this down.

She shared three tidbits which I thought were all amazing.

The first is that knowledge is power. The more you know, the more confident you will be. I think that makes total sense because 80% of your negotiation success is your research, is how well you have prepared and what you know going into the conversation.

The second secret to her negotiation success was that she knows her value and she knows how to articulate it. If you’re curious about how to do that, again, you can check out the previous podcast episodes number 8 and number 9, as well as number 10, all around how to articulate your value and how to speak your value without fear and anxiety.

Number three, the third secret to her success, was that you get back what you give. I thought that was really powerful, and that also reminded me of another inspiring quote by motivational speaker Zig Ziglar, who said,

You can get everything you want in life if you help enough other people get what they want.

And I think that is a really great definition of adding value. How do you gain value? You gain value when you have contributed value to others. 

And, finally, there was a speaker, her name was Kathy Gilbert, and she is the Director of Sales and Business Development for this major organization called CDK Global, and she talked about how to define success for yourself, and the importance of integrity, diversity and culture.

She is a black woman, and she rose through the ranks as well to become Director of Sales and Business Development for this major organization that works with the automotive industry, including women dealers, manufacturers, vendor partners, and affiliate organizations. She was very authentic in her speech, and in the middle of the speech she said, “Here’s how I know I am a success. It’s because I am here. I am here with you on a Thursday morning at the Javits Center, celebrating my birthday. I’m speaking at the New York Auto Show, telling my story to women in the automotive industry, and that’s how I know that I am successful. Because I am here.”

I thought that was really powerful, and so did everyone else. We all applauded, because we realized: Oh, yeah! We’re here. We’re right here and we are successful with you, Kathy.

And what she showed us by her example was that you get to define success for yourself, and it’s so powerful to see people do it, because it gives us permission to do it for ourselves. And what that clued me into is that, like success, which we can define for ourselves, we can also define what is valuable or what is value.

Now when you hear me say that, you might be thinking, “No, Jamie, you don’t understand. It’s just about the money!” Yes, money is definitely a yardstick of success that a lot of people agree on.

If you contribute value, money will come your way. However, money is not necessarily success.

Money is not the definition of success, nor is it the definition of value.

So, what is value? We talk about value all the time in negotiation. How do you create value? How do you articulate value? Collaborate to gain value? I’ve been listening to The Life Coach School Podcast by Brooke Castillo and recently she did an episode about money, and it came to a really surprising conclusion that illuminated what value is and where it comes from.

Basically, she says, value is created in the mind. I’ll say it again. Value is created in the mind. That makes a lot of sense to me, because you can have the same object, let’s say a beautiful dress, and the same dress can be of different value to one person and completely no value to another. It’s how we define value in our minds, and even money.

I’m traveling to Asia in the spring, and the currency, the value of a dollar has changed over time because people have decided that a dollar is now less valuable than a Japanese yen. And again, that’s because we made that decision in our minds. Value is created in the mind. 

So, I’ll wrap this up with a helpful tip. How can you apply all of this so that you can negotiate successfully in your life? I think two things.

First, really get clear on what you value. What is important to you? What is worth the effort, what is worth the aggravation of engaging in a negotiation for you? How do you define value?

And also, how will you define success for yourself? In other words, what do you want and why is it important to you?

Secondly, find out what your negotiation counterpart values. This will help you gain the upper hand. If you understand what they value, what this money or this contract or this deal or getting a yes, what it means to them and why it is valuable to them, you will be able to get through, you will be able to influence, and you will be able to get that yes.

So, I wish you great success in your negotiation and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.
 

Ding! 5 Minute Exercise for Negotiation Anxiety

Does the thought of negotiating for yourself make your hands go clammy, your throat dry and your heart beating fast?

I share the good news about negotiation anxiety, the tough news (not bad, just tough) and a five minute exercise for overcoming anxiety so you can take confident action towards your goals.

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Full Episode Transcript:

Hello! Welcome to the eleventh episode of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I am your host, Jamie Lee. We’ve been talking about the key practices for negotiation success on this podcast, and I shared my free script on how to ask for a big pay raise.

I got unexpected feedback that some people thought it doesn’t apply to them. That this wouldn’t work for them because they haven’t contributed as much value as Karina did in the example that I give in this book. That clued me into the fact that I’ve overlooked one of the most important negotiations that we ever have. It’s the one we have with ourselves. 

What am I talking about? I’m talking about negotiation anxiety. I’m talking about that clammy feeling in your hands, when your mouth goes dry and your heart starts beating really fast before you negotiate, and for some, it’s so bad they just don’t negotiate.

They let that anxiety hold them back from initiating a conversation, engaging and asking for what they want. How do we overcome this? I have for you, the good news, the tough news - it’s not bad news, it’s just tough news that we can process - and then a quick, five-minute exercise for overcoming negotiation anxiety so that you can articulate your value, advocate for your value, ask and get what you want.

So, what’s the good news? The good news about negotiation anxiety is that really, when you boil it down to the essentials, it’s basically just a thought. A stressful thought that causes a vibration in your body.

That’s the good news, because number two: it’s true that you’re not your thoughts. You can have the thoughts. What you feel, what you experience when you have that thought, it’s not really you, it’s just the thought.

And then finally, the third good news is that you can have new thoughts. You can generate new thoughts. This is basically not unlike reframing, when you create new perspectives, new ideas in a negotiation. Just like that, you can have new thoughts in your head.

So, what’s the tough news?

Three key news. The first is that no one teaches us how to do this, really. I’ve read many, many negotiation books, but no one talks about how to overcome your negotiation anxiety so that you can show up with real confidence. They just tell you, don’t be emotional. It doesn’t really help, because emotions drive our actions and our decision-making process.

And number two: the tough news is that without overcoming negotiation anxiety, we’ll never actually feel good, even when we get what we want. In other words, without overcoming negotiation anxiety, we never feel successful, so that’s kind of tough.

The third news is that generating new thoughts and feeling successful, it takes practice.

So, what do we do? What are the four key steps? Think about a stressful conversation or a negotiation that’s causing you anxiety. I want you to hear a bell go off in your head when you feel that dread and anxiety. The clammy hands, the heart palpitating, your shoulders stiffening up, and you feel that negative emotion and the vibration in your body. Feel a DING go off. What is DING? It’s basically an acronym, D-I-N-G.

D - Deep breath. Relax. Try to relax. And you can do it by taking a deep breath in and a full breath out. I learned that when you are feeling anxious, you actually don’t exhale fully. You’re trying to take a breath in, you’re feeling anxious, and you’re going like this (hyperventilating), but you don’t ahhhhhh, exhale fully. So, breathe in for four, exhale for six. Something I learned in elementary school that still works. Take a deep breath. (I do this as part of my morning meditation every day)

I - Identify your feeling. What is that vibration? Where is it in your body? Do you feel it in your neck? In your shoulder? In your solar plexus? In your hands? Just feel it. Identify it. Be with it. Observe it. Own it, so that you can release it. And now, the N.

N - Name that thought. What is that sentence in your head that’s causing the vibration? Ask yourself: what am I thinking? What is the stressful thought? And for many people it’s a variation on: I’m not good enough. I haven’t done enough. I’m a hack. I’m not good enough. There’s something wrong with me.  Okay, so once you have identified your emotions and have named that thought or that sentence, it’s the G.

G - Go change the thought. Now, if you’re thinking oh, she’s gonna be like oh, just turn it around, make it all positive, happy-go-lucky, you’re thriving! No. Actually, no. Don’t turn it around to the positive just yet. And that’s because we want to train our brain to think in a new way, and when we try to give it new, positive thoughts, it just does this reverse thing.

It’s just like: Ugh, it’s too positive, I can’t believe it. In fact, it’s so positive that it turns me off, and I’m just gonna go more negative because I feel I can’t believe it.

So we want to train our brains to have new thoughts by training it to think in increments or baby steps. And so, from having that thought I’m not good enough, go to a neutral place.

A positive change to that thought I’m not good enough might be something like, I’m amazing! I’m thriving! I’m so happy! But when you try to believe that thought, you just feel kind of more turned down, not turned up, so go neutral.

What’s in between the thought I’m not good enough and I am amazing? Completely neutral might be something like: I exist. I do the work that I have.

So from there, go find evidence to support that neutral thought. I do the work that I have. Did you have a task item on your list that you crossed off today? Do you carry the function that you’re assigned to do? What is the evidence that you do the work that you have? What is the evidence that you simply exist? And now that you have a neutral thought, and you have evidence to support this new thought, can you believe it? And how does it feel? 

It might sound a little self-help-y. It might sound something like: Wait, why aren’t you giving me negotiation tips and tricks and strategies? I just want to make the money, I just want to go close my wage gap.

But the thing is, in order for us to close our wage gaps, in order for us to show up as leaders, the kind of leaders that we want to be in the world, we have to have confidence, right? And confidence comes from taking action, but we feel so much anxiety that we’re frozen and can’t take action, we don’t get confident. And where does action come from? Confident action comes from a feeling that you have. The conviction in your body. And the feeling comes from a thought that you have in your head, the belief inside of you that you are worth it. That there is something to take action for. That there is something worth taking a risk for. 

So, I really want to encourage you to take time to feel the anxiety that you feel when you have a negotiation coming up, when you have a difficult conversation coming up. The good news is that you can turn it around, and you can start with neutral thoughts. When you have neutral thoughts you are feeling something different and taking a different action.

So, I hope that this podcast was helpful for you. I hope that I have helped you see negotiation anxiety in a different light, and that you take action on the things that you want, you take action on becoming the leader that you want to be.

Thank you, and talk to you soon!
 

Five Minute Exercise for Speaking Your Value

I share a quick and fun exercise for crafting your unique value statement so you can negotiate with power and poise. I also offer my free script “How To Ask For A Big Pay Raise”.

Click here to download the free script.

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Full Podcast Transcript: 

Hello! Welcome to the tenth episode of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I am your host, Jamie Lee. I work as a coach, speaker, trainer and I believe that we are all born to thrive. And I want to help you thrive. I want to help you close your wage gap.

If you write me an email at jamie@jamieleecoach.com, I will send you my script on how to ask for a big pay raise. This script is based on a real life scenario. I will call my client Karina for the purpose of this podcast. And Karina, she used this script, a version of this script, to ask and get a 44% increase in her salary with stock options. So this script worked for her, and if you are somebody who contributes undeniable value at work but is underpaid for the value you bring, I think this script can help you. So please write me at jamie@jamieleecoach.com (or click here to download the script).

Lately, I’ve been working on my own website. I was working with She Negotiates for the past year and a half, and I have decided to strike out on my own as a leadership and negotiation coach for ambitious women.

So, today I’ve been working on crafting my own unique value statements. If you listened to the previous episode, you would know that articulating your unique value is the first key practice for negotiation success.

What is your unique value?

Today I had to ask that to myself many times over, and I just come back to this over and over again: that I am here to help other people maximize their potential so that they can thrive. So that other people can thrive.

I really believe in serving others. I believe in making a contribution. I believe in doing work that has meaning, that is bigger than myself, and I’m really excited to do the work that I do, and I hope that you are excited, too. If you want to work on your unique value proposition statement, I have a really quick and fun exercise that I shared with Smith College alums on Monday night that I’d love to share with you.

So, here’s the exercise: Grab a piece of paper and pen. I’ll wait. If you have a piece of paper or if you are on your smartphone, if you can open your Notes app while you’re listening to this, do it. You’re going to make some very simple lists, and then at the end of it, you’re going to distill what you learn from this exercise into a succinct and cogent statement of your unique value. 

So, here’s the first list: What are you most proud of? What are you most proud of accomplishing in the past year, past month, past quarter? Don’t think too hard about this, just whatever comes up, write it down. Write as many as you can fit. And try to be specific, and if you have facts and figures, all the better. 

Then the second list is: What do you stand for? What are your values? And if you do have a specific negotiation conversation, and for the purpose of clarity, negotiation is simply a conversation where you’re trying to reach an agreement. So if you’re trying to get somebody to agree with you, and if you know them, what do they stand for? And what do they stand against? And what do you stand against? If you stand for something, then you’re definitely against some other things, right? So, just write those things, and compare your list against the things that you know the other side, your negotiation counterpart, also stands for or also stands against. In other words, find where you share values. So, that’s a list. 

And then the third list is where you can go really crazy. Crazy imaginative. What are you capable of? What is your future potential?

In the last episode, we talked briefly about how us women, we don’t always get rewarded for our future potential as much as men do.

This is something that Dr. Johanna Barsh found out in her gender research, and something that Sheryl Sandberg also talked about in her book, Lean In.

What is your future potential? What are you capable of? What’s possible? Be as imaginative as you can be. Don’t hold yourself back by the voice of the Itty Bitty Shouldy Committee that tells you, “Who do you think you are?!” If you can quiet that voice down, and just let yourself imagine all the things that you can do, what’s possible?

Okay, so now you have three lists.

The first is things that you are proud of having accomplished.

Second is the list of your values, and if you have a negotiation counterpart, and you do know them, and if you do know what they stand for or what they stand against, then you also know where you share values with the other side. So this is really important and useful.

Third, you have a list of your potential, your future potential. What can you do? What kind of leader can you be?

And finally, now that you have drawn this exhaustive list, I want you to distill the common themes, the key themes, the things that just keep popping up over and over again in terms of your proud accomplishments, your values, and what you are capable of and want to achieve. 

You’re going to distill this into one specific statement that goes like this: I _______________ , and this blank is an active verb, so that _____________________. 

I drive partnerships so that we can exceed our goals.
I connect the dots for our donors so that they can see the tremendous value that we deliver to our constituents.
I teach negotiation skills so that women can lead, influence and thrive. 

So those were three specific examples. I’d love to know what you come up with when you do this exercise. This was really fun to do in person earlier this week, when I led a negotiation workshop in Philadelphia. When people did this exercise and they got to share it with each other, there was this great sense of empowerment. They were like, “Yeah! This is what I’m capable of, and this is my unique value!”

And then, the second part to this is dovetailing it with your reasonably ambitious ask. So the unique value statement, if it is cogent, if it is to the point, if it is relevant to the listener, then what you accomplish by speaking your unique value statement is framing for mutual benefit. And then you can dovetail it with your ask by saying, “And that’s why I believe I deserve the high end of the going market rates, and that is $150,000.” Or whatever you want to ask for.

So to wrap this up, I hope that this quick and fun exercise helps you clarify your unique value, and helps you negotiate with confidence and power so that you can thrive. Thank you!
 

Articulating Your Value for a Big Pay Raise

How do you articulate your value at the #negotiation table, so that you can ask for a big pay 💰 raise?

How do you craft a compelling unique value proposition statement that captures your accomplishments, values, and potential? 

Here's the link to download the script I mention in this episode. 

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Full Episode Transcript:

Hello! Welcome to the ninth episode of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I am your host, Jamie Lee. Tonight, I have the awesome privilege of hosting a negotiation workshop for Smith Alums in Philadelphia, and in about twenty minutes, I have to go catch the train to Philadelphia, so this is going to be a quick but powerful one. I believe that negotiation skills are leadership skills, and that we are all born to lead, influence and thrive. 

We’re talking about the five key practices for negotiation success, the first of which is articulating your value. How do you articulate your unique value so that it is compelling to your negotiation partner? I think it’s really important to think about it in three concrete ways.

• The first: What is the worth of your contributions, your strengths, your skills?
• Number two: What do you stand for?
• Number three: What is your potential?

A really compelling, unique value proposition captures all three of these. The worth of your contributions, what you stand for, and your future potential.

Number one: What is the worth of your contributions? 

Take for example, my recent client. I’m going to call her Karina for this example. She works in digital marketing, and she has contributed undeniable value to her employer. It’s undeniable because she exceeded the revenue goals for her department, and the revenue goals were $10 million and she brought in $12 million. So, that’s value, right? That has undeniable worth.

And yet, she was being compensated below going market averages, and she wasn’t even making six figures. And so, we came up with a negotiation strategy, and it centered around her unique value proposition, which is, “Hey, I want to be compensated according to the value I contribute to this employer, and I’m contributing and I’m exceeding the targets and yet my compensation is not even 1% of the value, the $12 million  that I brought in. So, could we have a conversation about bringing me up to market, so that I’m being compensated for the value I bring?”

You might be listening to this and you think well, I don’t work in sales, I don’t work in a capacity where it’s tied to revenue or figures like that. I don’t know how to articulate my value.

So, think about not just what you do, but how does your employer benefit from what you do? I talked about this in the second episode, Salary Negotiation FAQs.

It’s not just because you do your job that they hire you, they hire you for the end benefit. Because you do your job, there is more security. Because you do your job, there is consistency. Because you do your job, there is smooth operation, happy customers, returning customers, etc.

So, if you’re not sure how to articulate your value, the worth of your contributions, strengths and talents, think about all the things that you do contribute.

In fact, I would strongly suggest you list them. Make a list on paper or in a Google Doc. What have you done? What have you accomplished?

And ask, so what? Because you did this, they benefited by X, Y, Z. Think about, I generated the reports, so they have visibility into operations, and because they have visibility into operations, they can make decisions faster, and because they are making decisions faster, we are more profitable.  

Number two: What do you stand for?

So in other words, I’m asking about your values, not just what is your value. What are your values? What do you stand for? Most of my coaching clients, they stand for serving others.

I had a client who worked in the government contractor industry, and for this person, it was the value of serving the needs of others that really shone through, that was really important for him.

He was doing his job, not just so that he can say he did a great job, he did his job so that other people’s lives improved. And so he articulated that in his unique value proposition. "I’m here to serve others. I’m here to serve the mission and goal of this organization, because the goal and mission of this organization is to improve the lives of those we serve." That’s kind of a circular statement, but you understand what I’m saying. 

Finally: What is your potential?

What can you accomplish? I think this is so important for women negotiators, because we tend to be rewarded for the work we have done, not necessarily for the potential that we bring. Not everyone sees our leadership potential unless we have already done all the work and exceeded targets.

So, it behooves us to articulate what that potential is. What can you do? What can you contribute? We think about potential, and we think about all the great things we can be doing, and sometimes instead of having this become an inspiration or a motivator, it can become a de-motivator for some people.

It can be like, oh, I’m not living up to my potential. But here’s the definition of potential: potential is doing what you can. What can you do? I think that potential is probably tied to your sense of purpose. Why are you here? What are you serving? What are the values you’re honoring? So it’s really closely tied to your values. 

For me, when I do this exercise, I see that my potential is to help unlock other people’s potential so that they can thrive. And when I see that because of the work I do, women are closing their gender wage gaps, people are asking for what they want, people are making decisions that are self-empowered and give them a sense of greater joy, fulfillment and happiness, I see that I am doing my job. I see that I am living up to my potential.

And that’s why this podcast is called Born to Thrive, because I believe that we are all born to lead, influence and thrive, and learning negotiation skills can help us achieve that purpose. 

I’ve written a script that outlines the process that Karina went through, what her negotiation conversation was like so that you can see for yourself what it is like to articulate for your value, and to respond to pushback, to excuses like oh, we don’t have the money in the budget or whatever, if you are negotiating for bigger pay, promotion etc.

And I would like to share this script with you. If you email me at jamie@jamieleecoach.com - and I spell my name J-A-M-I-E - jamieleecoach.com, I will send the script to you because I believe it is my purpose to help other people live up to their potential, and if it helps you, if it contributes value to your negotiation to see how this one successful negotiation went, then that’s great!

I love that. I’d love to help you close your wage gap. I’d love to help you live up to your potential. So, feel free to write me at jamie@jamieleecoach.com to get this free script on how to ask for a big pay raise. Thank you, and I hope that this helps you thrive. Bye!

What are the 5 Key Practices for Negotiation Success?

Negotiation skills are leadership skills.

Conscious leadership and value-creating negotiation both require self-awareness, learning agility, communication and influence.

I share my definition of negotiation and five key practices for negotiation success.

Enjoy!

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Full Episode Transcript:

Hello! Welcome to the eighth episode of Born to Thrive with Jamie Lee. I am your host, Jamie Lee. I work as a negotiation and leadership coach for ambitious women. I believe that we are all born to thrive.

I looked up the definition of the word thrive in the dictionary, and it said it means to grow with vigor. I looked up the word vigor, and vigor means vitality, life force, energy.

The word thrive kind of makes you think of something really happy and joyful, but for some reason I keep confusing the word vigor with rigor. It might be because English is my second language, I don’t know, but I got curious and I looked up rigor, too.

Rigor is harshness. Something difficult. Constraints. It kind of makes sense to me that to thrive requires both vigor and rigor. Yes, you need life force. Yes, you need energy. But you also need to overcome something difficult. You need rigor in order to truly thrive. 

I say that because negotiation is difficult for a lot of people. We’d rather not do it. We’d rather avoid it. We’d rather resist it. Or we’d rather approach it with this attitude of defensiveness, anger, righteousness. We put up a fight.

I don’t think this is really constructive. I also don’t think that negotiation is a fight. Negotiation is not about manipulation, confrontation. It’s simply a conversation. A conversation where everyone has the right to say no. A conversation where we try to come to an agreement. That is it. That is my definition of negotiation. That means we negotiate all the time, for little things, big things.

Who’s gonna do the dishes? What are we gonna do for dinner? How are we going to resolve peace, how are we going to come to peace in the Korean peninsula? These are all negotiations, and we have been engaging in these conversations ever since we were able to say the word “No,” ever since we were able to express our desire for autonomy, for self-expression, when we were either one and a half or two years old or for some people three years old.

So, whatever your age is, subtract two from it and that’s how long you have been practicing, that’s how long you have been negotiating for what you want. 

I believe that negotiation is a leadership skill, and so every time I teach negotiation, I start with, “What kind of leader do you want to be?” Next Monday, I have the great privilege of leading a hands-on, interactive negotiation workshop for Smith alums in Philadelphia, and for that workshop, I prepared a one-sheet with five key practices for negotiation success, and I thought, “You know, why not share it with my podcast audience?”

So, a quick preamble here. There’s a wonderful book called The Fifteen Commitments of Conscious Leadership, and it says there are four core competencies of conscious leadership, and I find that these four core competencies are also the core competencies of value-creating, problem-solving negotiation. I learned this from Lisa Gates at She Negotiates, my business mentor, and I think it’s phenomenal, because it really teaches you what you need to bring in order to have problem-solving, value-creating, negotiation conversations. 

So the four competencies are: 

Number one: Self-awareness. Are you aware of your skills, your strengths, your qualities, your tendencies, your conflict style, your communication style? The more you know, the better you will handle, the better you will manage yourself in and throughout the negotiation process.

Number two: Learning agility. The goal of negotiation is to 1) gather information, and 2) influence the behavior of others. So, throughout the conversation, you want to be learning and learning in different ways. So, improving your learning agility will really help you negotiate with success.

Number three: Communication. Negotiation is simply a communication discipline. It’s a communication with a goal, right? So, how do you communicate? You listen. You express yourself. You reflect on what you’ve heard and you try to express your desires so that it is receptive to the listener. Much earlier in this podcast series, I think it was Episode 3, when I talked about the traps of perfectionism, I talked about how there are four elements within communication: What you want to say, how you say it, what people hear, and what they make it mean. So, that’s communication.

Number four: Influence. You want to influence the other’s behavior in a negotiation, right? You want them to say yes* (In the podcast, I say "no," but I mean "yes." Mea Culpa.) or you want them to change their minds if they’re saying no. The thing about influence is it’s not about telling people what to do and in negotiation it’s not always a debate where you want to prove yourself right and prove the other person wrong. Real influence doesn’t work like that, because real influence is when you have an indirect impact on the other person’s perception, decision making process, and in which they feel that they have come to the decision on their own. So, it’s not about telling people what to do. That’s not negotiation, that’s making demands. It’s not about proving the other side wrong. That’s debate, right? It’s really about influencing. In order to influence, you really need to be able to put yourself in the shoes of the other, see their perspective, and of course that requires empathy.

So, I will wrap this up with, as I mentioned earlier, the five key practices of negotiation success, and what I would like to do in the subsequent episodes is go a little bit deeper into each of the key practices. 

So, number one: the first key practice of negotiation success is to articulate your value so that they see the value of you as a benefit to them. 

Number two: build your alliance. Lisa Gates calls it building your influence posse. I love that. Reaching out to your network. Identifying who are champions who can advocate for you, allies who will go to bat for you, and influencers who will create inroads with the key decision-maker in this negotiation. 

Number three: dig and listen deeply. I know there are a lot of combative negotiators who feel like the point of negotiation is simply to get more than the other side, and it’s all about me, just let me make my point, and I am right. No. Real negotiation happens when you listen and dig deeper into the hidden interests of the other side. 

Number four: anchor first and anchor high. Really good, masterful negotiators understand the magic of telling people what you want and dropping that anchor. It’s a cognitive bias that can work towards your favor.

Number five: get genuine buy-in. That’s what I was talking about earlier when I explained influence. It’s not about telling people what to do, that’s making demands. It’s not about proving other people wrong, that’s debating. Negotiation and true influence is when the other side come to see your point of view, and the other side come to decide for themselves to go along with your proposal. So that’s real, genuine buy-in. It’s how you really get through to people and connect.

I’m really excited about going deeper into these key practices with you in the subsequent episodes, and I hope that you have a wonderful day where you thrive. Talk to you soon!
 

Salary Negotiation FAQs

In the second episode of Born to Thrive, I address three most frequently asked questions that I get as a negotiation coach for women.

1. Who goes first in giving a number (you!)

2. What if my employer questions your loyalty? (They don’t pay for your emotional labor)

3. How do you respond to a lowball offer? (I offer a script for responding to this in this podcast).

Enjoy!

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Transcript:

On International Women's Day, I'd like to answer three most frequently asked questions I get as a negotiation coach for women. Earlier this week I got to speak about workplace culture and negotiation at The Wing, the only co-working space dedicated to women. I notice that I get asked these three questions over and over again. 

First, who goes first? 

I've been teaching and studying negotiation for over five years, and I notice that the person who anchors first, the person who tells the other side what they want first almost always has the negotiation tip towards her favor. 

Anchoring simply means you tell them what you want. Anchoring is a powerful cognitive bias. Once you drop an anchor, the conversation will tip towards your favor -- IF your anchor is reasonably ambitious. For example, asking for $500K when the going rate is $250K is unreasonable. But if you find out that the going rate for your role is $150K, then ask for $150K. 

• Do online research to find the going market rate for your role.
• Ask your network what they're making. National Labor Relations Act protects your right to ask your colleagues about their pay, even if your employer frowns on this. So be tactful. 
• If you're a woman who feels she's underpaid, ask men in similar roles what they're making.
• Several women I've talked to have often found out that their male predecessors made around $10K-$20K more in the same role! 

Second, what if your employer questions your loyalty if you ask for more money? 

Remember that your employer does not pay you for your loyalty. This is especially true if you work under "At Will" contract.

Loyalty is emotional labor. You don't get paid for your emotional labor. You get a salary for the benefit, or the value of your contributions. 

Your contributions may add to the bottom line or to prestige to the company, or help retain paying customers. For example, if you work in customer service, the end benefit of your work may be improved customer satisfaction which leads to improved customer retention. Existing customers are paying customers which means more revenue. 

So don't worry about emotional labor; focus on your value. 

Third, what if you get a lowball offer? 

So what if you got a job offer but didn't want to anchor because you were afraid to make a mistake? What if you're making $65K and got an offer for $58K? How should you respond? 

Here's my suggested script:

"This is a great place to start. I appreciate the offer and I'm looking forward to working towards the mission of your group. The thing is, I'm currently making more than the offer. So if you can increase the offer to $70K, that would help me make this decision sooner rather than later."